Providence

Providence is a LARP game using Trent Yacuk's Kingdom Come system. It is a game of Fallen Angels and their struggle to survive against the forces of Heaven and Hell and some things in between.

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    Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

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    Rada
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by Rada on Wed 14 Jan 2009 - 17:17

    Umm... Jill that came from the quote of the rulebook that you included in your previous post.
    cenobyte
    cenobyte
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by cenobyte on Wed 14 Jan 2009 - 17:19

    Yeah, and my point is that I don't think that's the *only* way to play an Irredeemable character.
    cenobyte
    cenobyte
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by cenobyte on Wed 14 Jan 2009 - 21:43

    I think this settles the discussion once and for all:

    [URL="http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=301"]
    [/URL]
    Keth
    Keth
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by Keth on Wed 14 Jan 2009 - 21:44

    I really like that picture. It made my day Smile
    cenobyte
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by cenobyte on Thu 15 Jan 2009 - 14:02

    Also, this:
    (Note: Guess who's found a new favourite online comic?)

    cenobyte
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by cenobyte on Fri 16 Jan 2009 - 13:22

    Okay. ONE more. But only because it's salient to the actual discussion:

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    Morphine

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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by Morphine on Mon 19 Jan 2009 - 18:19

    To give an example of a different sort of irredeemable character:

    In the game I ran, the Black Rook loved the Black King more than anything in the world. She did not care about anyone else, or anything else. She would have done anything to keep him safe. Her one-mindedness made her irredeemable, but it did not make her loveless or completely uncontrolled.
    Rebecca O'Malley
    Rebecca O'Malley
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by Rebecca O'Malley on Mon 19 Jan 2009 - 18:44

    I remember her. She nearly killed me once or twice. Smile
    Keth
    Keth
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by Keth on Mon 19 Jan 2009 - 19:30

    Sounds like a very interesting character. Would have been interesting to see how that worked out. Sounds like a perfect rook though. Going to any lengths to do what the king orders without any real moral consequence... yeah that would be fun Smile .
    Anonymous
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by Guest on Wed 21 Jan 2009 - 19:01

    Even if we ignore that the rulebook says Irredeemable characters relish terrible acts (and anything that doesn't hurt people isn't terrible, just culturally unaccepted) there's all the matter of controlled vs uncontrolled Irredeemable.

    Unless I'm mistaken regarding the rules for it, as an Irredeemable character you have to spend points and then upkeep it to prevent yourself from killing everything you see. Those rules are telling me that when an Irredeemable character sees a kitten it takes a supreme act of will not to bite that kitten's head off. That's not just hardened and dead to the world, that's actively malicious. It comes as close to a word as poorly agreed upon as "evil" as anything ever will.

    And if virtues and sins represent good and evil respectively and only a virtuous character can be innocent then Innocent isn't just being sensitive to others and unable to cause harm, it's also tied up with good.

    I get the thing about how it's great to have a system governing how calloused you are totally divorced from good and evil, but I don't think that's what we have. We seem to have a system that governs how calloused you are that becomes a system of good and evil at its poles.
    Eliel
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by Eliel on Wed 21 Jan 2009 - 23:09

    I would think that the mechanics for hardcore & irredeemable probably don't exist in the real world. They represent "supernaturally" immoral characters. Real people who commit horrible heinous acts don't feel emotional pain when performing good acts. In fact most people who have committed the most vile acts in history view themselves as good people doing what they have to in order to make the world a better place. Just because someone commits genocide doesn't mean it causes them heartache to save a kitten from a tree. I think in the KC system however, supernatural beings are more effected by their morality. (at least that is part of how I am trying to wrap my brain around this system)
    cenobyte
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by cenobyte on Thu 22 Jan 2009 - 14:35

    Thank you, Dave.
    I agree with that last statement.
    Er.
    Second-last statement.
    Anonymous
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by Guest on Thu 22 Jan 2009 - 17:41

    But that brings it back to being wholly a scale of how good or evil you are.
    cenobyte
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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

    Post by cenobyte on Thu 22 Jan 2009 - 17:50

    I don't want to be a *complete* asshole here...maybe just a *partial* asshole...so please, forgive me for what I am about to say.

    I really think we've beaten this mammal well past its prime.

    If you don't like the Morality system, I think that's unfortunate, but for the most part, it accomplishes what it sets out to do: it provides one of the means by which you accumulate Trauma.

    At this point, I don't think it's really that important if it's a scale of how good or evil you are, or how desensitised you are to violence, or how willing you are to do Bad Things. I don't think it's important at this stage in the discussion if Morality should be called Serendipity or Alice or anything else.

    There comes a time when feedback and suggestions descend into bickering, and that's what I feel this discussion has become. I don't feel that there is anything new being offered, nor do I feel that any further discussion will 'solve' anything. It seems like at this point, there is no way to reach a consensus.

    In fact, at this point, I don't even know what, if anything, is being suggested.

    I think all of you have made good points, and have given me quite a lot to think about in terms of what Morality means as it relates to KC. As a game mechanic, I think it does what it sets out to do, and I think it does it fairly simply.

    So, thank you for entertaining this discussion. I'm going to close the topic, although if you would like to forward me your concrete and concise feedback/suggestions about Morality, please do so via email.

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    Re: Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

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