Providence

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Providence

Providence is a LARP game using Trent Yacuk's Kingdom Come system. It is a game of Fallen Angels and their struggle to survive against the forces of Heaven and Hell and some things in between.

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    Embodiment, Conviction, and Morality

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    Post by Corral Wed 24 Dec 2008 - 8:55

    Maybe the angels do follow our morality system.

    Maybe after they come down and smite us, they go home to weep and weep.
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    Post by Guest Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 15:17

    I think I ultimatley end up finding all morality systems in RPGs oppressive. The morality system in this game just takes an approach that violence is always wrong, even if it prevents greater violence, and passively allowing evil to take place is fine... it's a sort of system that a lot of people claim to hold but not one a lot of people actually seem follow. It seems very much a simplified version of good and bad that we teach to young children assuming they couldn't understand that many complicated factors that govern our real behaviour.

    And it doesn't make any sense to me that the Grigori would follow that. They are alien minds, thousands or millions of years old, many of them remembering (at least vaguely) hundreds or thousands of hours of mortal combat. The are aware of the true nature of the universe that mortals can't see, they fight angels and devils. I just can't see them being bound by the morality system they were given at Sunday school. And I don't mean they've become bad people despite what they were told at Sunday school, I mean they shouldn't be operating within that system at all.

    On the subject of the convictions I think there might be such a thing as a typical Divine, and they'd come off something like Marius does. Someone who is too self-assured for the comfort of everyone else, annoying because you think he must be judging you even if he doesn't say anything, but utlimately a good person you can count on to do the right thing and someone you would want backing you up when the shit hits the fan.

    Not that you wouldn't have people who are made into mosters by their faith, perfectly willing to kill and torture and to whom the idea of mercy doesn't occur because they are doing God's work and the only immoral thing they could possibly do is shy from that.

    Also the "corrupted priest" sort of person. Characters who aren't righteous in any way at all and behave the way you'd expect most infernal to but keep that secret and don't feel they need to seek any sort of help and don't make a real effort to change their ways because they've sworn themselves to God and that's all that really matters.

    I don't see there being a lot of divine who don't allow God to rule their daily lives. Most real life theists are moderates but I don't think that would be paralleled in the Grigori. I think the idea of God would be a lot more important and a lot less confused in the mind of a Grigori than it would be in that of a human and unless you were Deistical and believed God was dead and/or gone it would be central to your life and govern every descision.

    It's more difficult to think of how the typical infernal would behave because people like that aren't really paralleled in real life. The divine would be a more extreme version of real life theists, and the Deistical of real life atheists and agnostics. No one in the real world is really willing to accept the existence of a monstrous creator god. When people in the real world come to the conclusion, for whatever reason, that God is evil they seem to either reverse that conclusion or become atheists and say that there must be no god whatsoever.

    People who really *hate* God seem to be few and far between, but I'm thinking Mal, of Firefly. He often has atheism attributed to him but he really seems to hate God instead of disbelieve in him. And that's how I see *most* Infernal ending up. Not actively malicious to the world around them and even very attached to an inner circle whom they trust but totally willing to destroy whoever crosses them or their inner circle. And then you'd have a significant minority who want to watch the world burn added to the the mix, pretending to be the other type most of the time, but giving the whole lot of the Infernal a bad name and leaving them very ill-trusted by the Divine, who would see the bad attitude most infernal have as a sign *all* of them are ready to engage in meaningless grand-scale evil at a moment's notice.
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    Post by cenobyte Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 15:39

    Again, great points. You should post more often.

    And I'm going to voice my opinion in a couple of places: There is more to this game's morality system than simply "you oughtn't commit violence" or "you oughtn't want to witness violence". As I've mentioned before, the Acts we have are guidelines; times during which you will *know* that a Trauma test could come up, and it provides loose guidelines of what each Morality means. But an immoral person isn't immoral just because they hit people. An immoral person is immoral **because hitting people doesn't bother them**. That's kind of the really important bit here. I like to think my view of "real-life" morality is fairly well developed, and regardless of the circumstances, when I hit someone, I feel really bad about it. Even if the hitee was doing something awful (to me or to someone or something else). Why? Because I know that purposely inflicting pain is Bad. I knew this long before I ever embraced any organised religion, and didn't learn 'right from wrong' in Sunday school (in fact, I didn't go to Sunday school after the day I asked "was Jesus gay? Because he was wearing a dress in all those pictures...")

    The point I'm trying to make is that the Morality system in KC is *not* based on whether or not you're willing to commit violent acts. It is based on the concept that Immoral individuals **Don't Care** how their actions (or inactions, I suppose) affect others.

    Now, the next thing I want to say is that I admire your take on whether or not the Fallen (we're not Grigori anymore, technically) would even operate on a 'humanity-driven' morality scale. Yes. They would. Why? **Because they are trapped in these human Bodies of Clay**. I want to emphasise that even more:

    Fallen *are* affected by "humanity's" Moralities because they are trapped in human Bodies of Clay.


    Yes, the Fallen remember what it was to be outside of humanity's Morality. But they simply can. not. do it. anymore. Because they are trapped in these bodies of clay. That which at first attracted them to humanity is now their prison. And they are **forced** to accept humanity's morality because they are at its mercy.

    This is why angels and devils don't seem to 'care' when they slaughter entire cities. They *are* outside of the human understanding of Morality. The Fallen are not. Even if they remember what it was like, and the way they used to think about such things, the very idea of doing it like that *now* is horrifying to any non-Irredeemable characters.

    The only way I can explain this better is to say that some people have a kind of shift in their fundamental belief system when they find that they deeply care about someone else (or many other people). Maybe they used to be the sort of person who "only looked out for themselves"...but the moment you feel that unbearable drawing together that is, for all intents and purposes, True Love (and pardon my waxing romantic and floofley), and you understand that there *is* a Greater Good and you are part of it, and you share some of the responsibility for making it better (or at least not making it worse)...that is the moment you understand what it might be like, on a teeny tiny scale.

    So, sure, if you want to believe that in terms of KC, God Itself is Irredeemable, go ahead. Ascribing human qualities to a deity seems odd, but that's the only way we really have of describing it ...so if that helps you understand the game's theology, then that's what it is. Ultimately, though, the Creator entity in KC is *outside* human understanding of Morality, as are the Angels and the Devils. And even if the Fallen once understood that, they no longer do.

    Which really makes the whole idea of what the Convictions are have a lot more impact to me, because if you can believe that the Creator is just and willing to forgive, but you cannot understand moralities outside human concepts, you're going to have some interesting discussions...at least with yourself. And on the other hand, if you're Infernal and you beleive that the Creator is Irredeemable and therefore so what's the harm in doing what It does (or in undoing what It does, since It won't care anyway), you should also be having some serious discussions with yourself. Deistical makes the most sense, I guess.

    But that's another post.
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    Post by Guest Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 16:53

    I think that even if the Fallen are no longer alien energy beings of unfathomable power and intelligence they're not human and aren't terribly likely to react emotionally to situations the same way humans do. If a human being were given superhuman powers, allowed to live for thousands of years, allowed to interact with terrible non-human entities, and mostly socialized with fellow not-quite-humans I think they would end up looking at things very differently than mortals do.

    Some to most newly reckoned would probably behave quite similarly to how mortals do, but how would their perception of the death of a mortal be changed for older fallen by witnessing the deaths of so many under so many different circumstances? Even if they strive to avoid violence they are immortal and humans aren't. Or how would it be changed by certain knowledge of an afterlife?

    I guess what I'm saying that that ordinary, real world people thrust into violence and mortal danger can kill and can cope and can still be perfectly personable, friendly, and harmless in situations where no one is putting them in mortal danger. The Fallen don't seem to be capable of finding that middle ground, even though some of them have been through and learned to cope with far more than a real person would have time to encounter in their life.

    I'm not against the idea of characters who abhor violence. Maybe a Fallen who was afraid of the notion of becoming a monster when subjected to time forever when they reckoned deliberately practiced and increased their own empathy to the point they can't stand suffering of any kind. Maybe to a Fallen who believes that God is a monster the death of any being with a soul is a terrible tragedy that should be absolutely avoided for as long as possible.

    But maybe a Fallen who remembers thousands of individual instances of mortal death has started seeing mortals as transitionary, immaterial things, sees their deaths as inevitable and immanent. Their deaths are about as tragic as the turning of the seaons and trying to prevent their deaths makes about as much sense as trying to prevent the turning of the seasons... But to harm of kill one of the Fallen, they see that the same way the same way typical humans see killing typical humans.

    Or maybe it goes the other way. Maybe a Fallen has spent so much time trying to protect mortals from the predation of the Infernal, not always meeting with success, that while they've developed and obsessive protectiveness and idealization of mortals while seeing their own kind as much less than human.

    They haven't reached these mindsets because they're not human, they've reached them because they don't live like humans live and don't experience the same things humans experience.

    But those sorts of outlooks don't really seem to be possible in this game.
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    Post by cenobyte Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 17:28

    I think that even if the Fallen are no longer
    alien energy beings of unfathomable power and intelligence they're not
    human and aren't terribly likely to react emotionally to situations the
    same way humans do.

    Uh, no, actually, one of the big points of KC is that Fallen *are* terribly affected by human emotions, and they **do** react emotionally to situations...not the same way humans do, but much, much more viscerally. That's a huge part of this game. You're human plus, not human minus.

    Keep in mind that you don't *remember* most of your existence as a Fallen. Just because you Reckon doesn't mean you automatically have access to all the knowledge you had as a celestial entity. You are forced to exist temporally, for all intents and purposes **as a human**, and therefore are also prey to human emotions, reactions, pleasures, and pains. That's one of the main tenets of the game.

    The Fallen are no longer Angels. They are not Demons. They're still tied loosely to the Symphony and to their celestial nature, but they are, for all intents and purposes, horribly, heartrendingly tied to human emotions. That's what make them so bloody vulnerable.
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    Post by Guest Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 11:14

    It's not remembering their celestial existence that I'm arguing would make them other than human, just starting from being pretty much human in their behaviours and outlooks and then existing for a long time in a strange world, knowing certain things. Humans can end up very weird, and they aren't immortal and don't have superpowers.

    And when you consider how bizarre religion can make some of its fanatics in the real world... they don't get like that because they remember what it's like to be a divine being or because they've got some strange supernatural knowledge the rest of us lack. They get like that because they've been exposed to religious ideas most of us would find strange and they've been surrounded by them for a long time. Humans get changed by things like that, and if Fallen are human then infinite time to be exposed to powerful religious ideas or equally powerful ideologies and certain knowledge of God, a divine failure on one's own part, constant exposure to a supernatural world, etc would create a stronger version of the same effect.

    Consider Fred Phelps. He switches between being a harmless, happy old man, the sort of person you feel you have to make sure doesn't have to open the door himself if he's headed into a mall at the same time as you, even if you don't know him (only if you don't know him, actually), and spewing hatred I can't even conceive of.

    Or consider basically any religiously motivated terrorists, they show no remorse whatsoever for actions we'd call irredeemable, but they haven't lost their sense of right and wrong, they believe they are righeous and they still love their families. Their priorities have just shifted. At the same time that they're willing to commit acts of horrific violence relatively minor offences we would brush off without a second thought are terrible to them.

    Or what about that monk who set himself on fire? If I'd have been asked offhand before it happened I'd probably have guessed no person could ever do that.

    And these people are mortals. They don't have any special superpowers, they aren't two hundred years old. They've adopted strange belief systems, mindsets that would be alien to most of us, and without any special knowledge or awareness. And it's not just that their morality has gone to one extreme or the other, it's that they aren't using the same moral framework at all.
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    Post by Arc Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 11:22

    Interesting thoughts Nick, but I do have one major objection on the point of the personable killer. From a humanist perspective such a person is a sociopath with a binary capability to dehumanize others based on an arbitrary criteria. This too, I will posit, is covered in the KC morality system.
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    Post by cenobyte Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 11:34

    You're right, and that's my point entirely. Except that I'm arguing that these people *are* using the same moral framework; they're just at different points on it.

    We could get in to examples that fall anywhere within the system we're using for the game (which, I really feel needs to be mentioned, is an artificial system constructed to use in a game that is make-believe), examples that would defend my position, your position, Rada's position...anything we want. F'rinstance the religious zealots who raze entire villages may not be consider themselves immoral at all, but they may see the hundreds of people they kill as *not human*. As you pointed out, "normal people" can see the immorality of their actions.

    The Morality system in KC is a good and flexible mechanic to describe the way you understand good and evil. It's simple, but robust. It isn't, IMO, a system that defines a character's willingness to commit violent acts. That description is too simplistic. It is a way to define how your character 'fits in' with the world around him/her, and the ways in which s/he reconciles, as you say, Nick, a certainty of the existence of a supreme being with what you experience trapped in a body of clay *every day*.

    One more point: while Fallen have been trapped in bodies of clay since the Fall, they don't remember most of that time, and so the insistence that Fallen should be somehow desensitised or outside of a humanistic view of morality is a fallacious one. It's not one person existing since the beginning of time; it's one *soul* existing for *extremely short periods of time* repeatedly throughout recent history. A soul which doesn't remember one existence tothe next; a soul that lives and dies and forgets, time after time, until it Reckons.
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    Post by Guest Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 11:59

    It's not specifically a problem I have with the morality system in this game, more of a problem with any time you've got a game with a morality system that basically ends up being a code of ethics, even a loose one, stretched between extremes of good and evil. I really disliked the system from Vampire: The Masquerade, too.

    Applying the same code to everyone leaves you with a problem where the mechanics feel like they fight you if you want to represent someone who considers one or two specific actions that most people would find morally questionable to be perfectly acceptable, but otherwise follows typical or more stringent than typical moral code.

    For a character to have no problem whatsoever with killing demons the only thing you can do is stick them close enough to evil that killing in general isn't a problem. And if the universal code of ethics declares killing demons is a lesser transgression than killing mortals that isn't any good either, because maybe your character feels all killing is on equal grounds. To have no problem robbing banks you have to put yourself close enough to evil that snatching food from starving homeless isn't a problem. Etc.

    In order to become comfortable with a single type of immoral action a character has to accept all sorts of terrible things you never envisionsed the character as being willing to accept.

    Now this game allows you to volunteer to take trauma, and that's great, beause it allows you to say your master-thief is having trouble resigning himself to steal an artifact if it's some mortal's treasured family heirloom, but it still really feels wrong to have to either have to put yourself near the bottom rung over a specific behavior, or have your character take trauma tests to do something that their backstory says they've been at for the last 15 years.
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    Post by cenobyte Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 12:39

    If you don't want to have to make trauma tests for murder, then don't put in your background that for the past 15 years, you've been murdering people. Just sayin'.

    I think I see what you're trying to say; I just don't agree with it. I think there *is* a universally understood morality that all humans recognise (in Real Life), and I think the way that morality is represented in KC is very well done and very smooth.
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    Post by Arc Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 16:11

    I believe it would be clearer to point out that in KC, the Christian God is an explicit part of reality (not to offend theists by directly implying he doesn't in rl-something I'm not even remotely qualified to answer). The same could be said for the implicit setting in the early World of Darkness books. That said, where one has a Creator and a revealed code of what not to do that is inherent in a setting it must be shown that Morality is in relation to that code, not whatever subjective interpretation people may have on actions.

    The only thing morality is in KC is a rating of how well you pass the test of ethics in the eyes of God. It doesn't say what others may think of you or what you MUST do in any given situation. Think of it a rules mechanic of cause and effect of how much God has to forgive when you meet St. Peter at the pearly gates...(which incidentally is neither Catholic nor KC canon)
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    Post by cenobyte Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 16:43

    Dunno if I agree with you.

    My take on it is that in KC, the existence of a Supreme Being is a given. However, there are no direct commandments given to the Fallen ordering them how to act and what their morality should be. In fact, quite the opposite. The Fallen are following a HUMAN morality, which the humans themselves devised based on a *supposition* of a Supreme Being. You could even argue that it was the Grigori themselves who first suggested there ought to be or who introduced the moral code. Or suggested that there is, in fact, a Supreme Being.

    I don't think morality in KC is a rating of how well you pass the test of ethics in the eyes of God at all. I think it is a rating of how well you are able to fit in with the ethics of those around you, of whom God, ostensibly, is not one.

    And part of the reason I say this is that when you violate this moral code, you don't lose any of your Celestial Powers. One would think that if the moral code were handed down on a silver platter or on several stone tablets by the Creator Itself, there would be some kind of really, REALLY serious repercussions having to do with suddenly not having any access to, say, True Voice.
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    Post by Arc Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 17:21

    I would point to the definition of Sin with reference to the morality status of Innocence. This shows that there is a clear natural condition outside of human morality as set forward by God, and simply looking at the various ways that one loses that status is what you are calling the human invention of morality. I see it as a very clear reference to an objective and rules validated indication of a definitive form of grace.
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    Post by cenobyte Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 17:30

    Where is this reference? There's no reference to sin in the description of Innocent morality.

    I don't think it's a natural progression to go from "attempting to harm an Innocent character" to "Creator-mandated morality".

    F'rinstance, just because it hurts you to harm an innocent doesn't mean that you're being punished *by God*.

    I guess that's part of what I'm trying to say, is that Morality isn't completely an external thing. It's an *internal* thing. It's not God punishing you for doing Bad Things. It's you punishing yourself for causing pain and suffering. Which is a very, very human condition.
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    Post by Guest Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 19:46

    The morality system can't be an assessment of how you measure up in the eyes of God, otherwise how you feel about your actions wouldn't determine your morality... how God feels about your actions would determine your morality.
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    Post by cenobyte Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 19:57

    no, your morality determines how you feel about your actions.
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    Post by Arc Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 23:35

    For clarification, the 'punished by God' was never part of my argument. Simply that morality is a prima facie measure of how much you'll need to be forgiven of. I think you've added you're own twist there in terms of it being a punishment.

    You've also gone a different direction with the Innocent argument, so I must be being somewhat more vague than intended. An Innocent is "without sin", as mentioned previously it means that the character cannot be a sinful Embodiment and must be extra careful in maintaining such a state of grace. This "clean slate" of the human soul in the game is not indicative what I believe is in real world psychology but is in theological writings the starting point of infants in most monotheistic religions. This purity is what the 10 Commandments and other social customs were designed to maintain. Or, if you like things really simple, there is only one real commandment in most human ethical systems and that is "Do no harm."

    Also, on the flip side is Irredeemable is a fairly positive measure that no creature of free will would seek your company unless they were a masochist. Also, in order for such a creature to continue having any sense at all requires additional effort to patch together some barely sensible system that your mind can grasp on to in order to give even a veneer of rationality. Such a thing can be barely called human/fallen anymore except in body which is probably why the term 'raving beast' is perhaps an indication that one has forsaken what soul they would have in God's eyes.

    The game system already states that children and exceptionally conscious young adults are Innocent and lose this over time due to simply being around others in the real world and the rather harsh broadening of their growing experiences. This can also be explained by the mechanics of the morality system of the game.

    The basic argument is that there is sufficient evidence in both the setting and the rule system to not only give a strong possible argument to the reasons why there is but one morality in the game and what it is actually measuring.

    Unlike Embodiments and basic nature there is no simple way to determine a character's morality without relying on out of game knowledge for a snap judgment. I think this adds flavour to the game since there are so many factors from a character's perspective that you cannot quantify which mirrors our own real life experiences with 'judging the morality' of others around us. This just means it is hard to be accurate not that there isn't a sole system of morality that is ingrained in the universe.

    I would find it much more difficult to argue for subjective morality or even a morality of human design by culture and its place in the game than I would given what has been set before us in the flavour text and rules of the game.
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    Post by Rada Wed 31 Dec 2008 - 16:26

    I think there *is* a universally understood morality that all humans recognise (in Real Life),

    If there is I don't think KC reflects it. I personally feel that killing another human is immoral, however I am in a tiny minority globally and historically. The vast majority of the people in the world do not think that certain uses of the death penalty are immoral. Most people who have lived felt that killing an enemy of their particular god is not immoral, in fact it was one the the most "good" acts a person could do. Throughout history there has been an expectation of rape by soldiers after conquest as a method of spreading the superior bloodlines. Even today I'm not sure if it is a majority or just large plurality of people who think torture is not immoral if done for the right reason and historically many thought it holy work as they were saving the soul of the person being tortured.

    I think the KC "morality" system is overall pretty good at helping to preserve the feel Trent wanted to achieve, but I think it either has to be an explicity subjective system of morality that is the "True" morality of this fictional world, or it shouldn't be called morality and should be a system that reflects how hardened a fallen's heart is.
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    Post by cenobyte Wed 31 Dec 2008 - 22:19

    Most people who have lived have not understood the necessity for washing your hands before you operate on someone, or the need for brushing your teeth. So I'm not sure if the 'most people who have lived' argument works *for me*.

    If you're getting hung up on the word "Morality", then think of it as a reflection of how hard a Fallen's heart is.
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    Post by Guest Thu 1 Jan 2009 - 15:28

    Arc wrote:For clarification, the 'punished by God' was never part of my argument. Simply that morality is a prima facie measure of how much you'll need to be forgiven of.

    But in this system you can retain a relatively high morality while doing terrible things as long as you're good at handling trauma. Or maintain a low morality while doing wonderful things, for that matter.
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    Post by Guest Thu 1 Jan 2009 - 15:33

    cenobyte wrote:Most people who have lived have not understood the necessity for washing your hands before you operate on someone, or the need for brushing your teeth. So I'm not sure if the 'most people who have lived' argument works *for me*.

    That's a bit of a red herring. No one is arguing there is a universal human understanding of the need to wash one's hands and brush one's teeth... And if someone were arguing such I would consider the abundance of people with poor hygeine to be a valid argument against it.

    All societies reject wanton, selfish, random violence and theft. They'd self-destruct if they didn't. But it seems that nearly everyone has a price. With the proper justifications in place, (Which justifications are necessary vary from culture to culture and person to person) violence and theft become acceptable.
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    Post by cenobyte Thu 1 Jan 2009 - 18:03

    But it seems that nearly everyone has a price.
    With the proper justifications in place, (Which justifications are
    necessary vary from culture to culture and person to person) violence
    and theft become acceptable.

    I just don't agree with that, but maybe that's because I look for the exceptions. I think it's also fair to argue that the majority of people who've lived didn't understand basic scientific principles or physics, either. You can call it a red herring if you wish, but the fact remains that arguing that the majority of people who've ever lived believe in something, it's only fair to understand the *other* things they've believed and look at their belief system in those terms.

    But in this system you can retain a relatively
    high morality while doing terrible things as long as you're good at
    handling trauma. Or maintain a low morality while doing wonderful
    things, for that matter.

    You *can*, but it's incredibly difficult, and you have to be willing to devote a lot of your downtime to healing the trauma you cause yourself by doing so.

    The easiest way in this system (and in RL, IMO) to maintain a high morality is simply by *not* doing terrible things. No matter how good your Confessor is.
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    Post by Guest Thu 1 Jan 2009 - 18:30

    cenobyte wrote:
    I just don't agree with that, but maybe that's because I look for the exceptions. I think it's also fair to argue that the majority of people who've lived didn't understand basic scientific principles or physics, either. You can call it a red herring if you wish, but the fact remains that arguing that the majority of people who've ever lived believe in something, it's only fair to understand the *other* things they've believed and look at their belief system in those terms.

    Whether or not you accept there are valid exuses for violence isn't the point. The point is that the majority of people can find what they consider to be valid exuses for violence... there's no near-consensus that violence is wrong for all situations, and what situations it is considered appropriate for vary considerably.

    The thing about the majority of people who ever lived is that Rada wasn't arguing killing can be justified, he was arguing there's no universal human abhorence to it. You can make an argument that violence is always wrong, and the opinions of the vast majority of people who ever lived can't be used as an argument against it.

    But if you make an argument that there is a universal morality grasped by humans and in that morality violence is wrong... that basically comes down to saying most people think violence is wrong. And all that has to be done to disprove that is show that a majority of people can justify violence to themselves.

    The fact that most people who ever lived have no grasp of modern mathematics doesn't invalidate modern mathematics, but it does disprove the notion that there is a universal human sense of modern mathematics.

    But in this system you can retain a relatively
    high morality while doing terrible things as long as you're good at
    handling trauma. Or maintain a low morality while doing wonderful
    things, for that matter.


    You *can*, but it's incredibly difficult, and you have to be willing to devote a lot of your downtime to healing the trauma you cause yourself by doing so.

    But even if it's difficult, unless you're somehow tricking God when you cope with trauma, or unless you only have to account to God for how you think of yourself, then your morality can't be a yardstick for what sort of case you'll be presenting to the creator upon judgement.
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    Post by cenobyte Tue 13 Jan 2009 - 16:35

    In the final word on Morality in Kingdom Come, I will say this:

    Morality
    in this game is taken to be the more prescriptive sense of the word. By which I mean it uses the definition of Morality as a code of behaviours. In this sense, it is perfectly reasonable to make moral value statements like "murder is immoral". A more descriptive sense of Morality, one that might be used to define society, religion, thought, or conscience, is not what is encapsulated in KC.

    So, in saying this, I want to address one of Dave (Rada's) points: He has said that Morality in KC isn't a system of 'morality' so much as it is a belief that violence is wrong. I disagree with that. Morality in KC is a code of behaviour. It's not solely about violence. It's about causing pain or suffering. If you equate "violence" with "suffering", then I suppose we're in agreement.

    I understand the Morality system in KC as a code of behaviours by which you choose the degree of suffering you are willing to cause. Innocent characters will cause no suffering. Immoral characters willingly choose to do so.

    IT's not the descriptive, ontological use of "Morality". It is the prescriptive, teleological use of "Morality" that we use in Kingdom Come.


    Last edited by cenobyte on Tue 13 Jan 2009 - 18:47; edited 2 times in total
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    Post by Arc Tue 13 Jan 2009 - 18:38

    Would it not be ontological if it is teleological?

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