Investigate, Hunt, Patrol

This isn't really a rules discussion, but I've put it here anyway, more for clarification than for anything else. The question came up in an IC Forum, about what you "get" from an Investigation, versus a Hunt, versus a Patrol - which is to say, what actually happens when they are successful.

Investigate actions will get you information about the target - who they are, where they're staying, the places they go, the people they talk to...consider yourself the private dick and the target is your mark. You're watching your target. You will not confront your Target (unless your Target is successfully Hunting you. Heh). Here are examples of what kind of specific information you might get: the types of downtime actions another character took; where a character's Domus is; who a character's Affections are; the layout and floor plan of a building; who knows specific information (if you Investigate an event, you'll find out who knows about that event and what they know); what that specific information is...that kind of stuff.

Hunt actions will allow you to find and confront your target. This is pretty straightforward. There are rules in the BRB about how the Storyguide can handle downtime combat, however, it is heavily stressed that confrontations should be handled in person. Hunt actions will not get you any information other than where the target is when you find him/her.

Patrol actions allow you to *interrupt* another action and force a confrontation. The same guidelines apply to the confrontation as above.

So a successful Investigate one month will *not* give you any ... shall we say, mechanics-specific advantages to a Hunt the next month, but it would give you IC advantages such as the floorplan of the place where it's staying?

If we succeed in an Investigate action on a target and fail the Hunt the next month, what is happening in-character? The target moved? The target is still living there but was not there when we arrived? We confronted the target but lost the fight?

No, you will not get any mechanics-specific advantages to a Hunt.
Yes, it could give you information such as the floorplan of the place the target has been staying.

If you succeed in an Investigation one month and fail a subsequent Hunt, any number of things could be happening. That depends on each individual situation. Sometimes, the target might have moved. Sometimes, the target is just gone.

If you lose a Hunt, you fail to confront the target; it's not a confront-and-lose. You simply don't find the target. If your Hunt action is successful, **it prompts a confrontation**. The result of that confrontation is left up to either the abstract combat rules or to actual combat when everyone involved in the hunt is available.

In my opinion, the only benefit to Investigating something that you are Hunting is to find out information that you want to know about it.

So, I might investigate an Angel/Devil if I was interested in learning it's embodiment or purpose for being here, or if it had an Office or other supernatural quality. If you want to know what humans it is manipulating (if any) or what its favourite flavour of slushy is, that'd be investigate as well.

I might investigate an Angel/Devil if, in the last fight, it could turn one of my fellow Fallen into a statue made out of salami. After all, that's not kosher and I'd want to know possible whys and hows. Maybe it uses an artifact that I could steal, or maybe it has a deal with the mortal magician, His Princely Prosciutto. Then I could either steal the item or kill the mage before the next hunt and weaken the Angel/Devil.

Investigate is also good if you want to find out if there are any Devils/Angels in the city -- or if there are any others than the ones you know about.

If all you want to do is prepare to Hunt it down and kill it, take a Training action or start a Contingency to remove Risk from the Hunt next month. (By the way, just so it gets said: RISK IS BAD. Contingencies help.) There is no point in Investigating something you know is around and want to kill.

I should also point out that Investigate can also reveal that a target that was once known to live in the 7-11 at the corner of Broad and 14th Avenue, it is no longer there. A successful Investigation would reveal that the target you're looking for is not where you expect it to be. It might reveal, in other words, that there is nothing to be found.

An unsuccessful Investigation would be worded more in terms of : "you do not find a Devil", or "you do not find anything".

To me - and I'm often alone with some of my perspectives about how the rules may work - you need to know something is there before you can Hunt it, and ideally you need to know something about the target as well, so you Investigate to see if your intended prey is around (otherwise, you're just on Patrol?). For instance, you could Investigate to determine if there are demons in the city...if so, then you can Hunt them...if not, then obviously you can't. If you try to Hunt something that isn't there, you won't be successful...and essentially all of your skulking around would have been a patrol (but not really I suppose as you are not intending to interupt others). Also, mechanically / logically, I feel that you should have pretty solid proof that your prey is actually around if you plan to Hunt it. I have a bit of an issue with heading out to Hunt something with no / little proof that it actually exists...even if you are playing the odds and there is an off-chance that you will successfully find the intended prey.

It's late and I'm tired and I think I've made my point...further clarification may be forthcoming.

Mike, I agree. My point was that once you know it is there and plan to kill it, Investigate is of limited use -- and liekly that effort would have been better spent in adding to the success of the Hunt. Even if you successfully Investigate simultaneous with the Hunt, it won't help although it might give you more information about what your quarry was doing. Investigating it extensively before is also a waste as it might move or change habits. I guess a simultaneous Investigate might reveal if it is still in the city if the Hunt fails... depending on the opposed roll.

Integrated into the Hunt action is finding and confronting the victim.

I agree with Mike's (Jordan) Description of how the rules should work but if that isn't how they do work in KC, I fall back on my old standby of characters understanding the nature of the reality of the world they live in. The mechanics of a game define the physics of that world. In a playtest group we should point out when the rules create an unrealistic situation but if the rules don't change then we need to play within them. As it stands, in this universe it is just as easy to "hunt" something whether you know it's there or not. While in our world it would be logical to investigate something before trying to hunt it, in the world of Kingdom Come, our characters should essentially realize they are just wasting time and resources.

Ulitmately what it comes down to for me is that the downtime system of KC creates a mundane world very different from our own. We see the same phenomenon in group actions as we are talking about in this thread. I think it is perfectly natural for characters to not bother investigating things and avoid group actions because they know that there are better uses of their time.

So I was thinking about this thread while doing my downtime actions and realized there is somewhat of a solution to the issue of preparing for a hunt: Player defined action. Investigate doesn't work but one could do something like:

Endeavour # 1
Action: Player defined
Difficulty: opposed
Effort: 2
Secular Power: 3
Resources: Spies (+1 reroll/negate 1 risk - note that this would not add the 3 marks since this isn't actually investigate - technically spies can only help on investigate and provide no help on other actions so the +1 reroll/ negate risk purely on the guide's good graces), overseer (+1 re-roll on opposed challenge)
Professions: Investigator (+1 reroll/negate 1 risk)
Previous Marks: 0
Player Defined: If successful, this action will assist in the Hunt of X in future months. My suggestion would be a free re-roll on the future opposed challenge however it is at the guide's choice whether this is appropriate or other benefit would be better (negate risk, provide extra marks, provide effort re-rolls, etc. for the future Hunt)
Story/Write-up: My spies are attempting to monitor X's whereabouts during the month. The concentrate not on specific locations but on patterns of behaviour. My overseer will gather the info obtained by the spies and generate a predictive formula for future movements. I will also be attempting to get a glimpse of X while listening to the Symphony so I have a better idea what to look for in future endeavours. My skills as an investigator make me more competent at this kind of work reducing the likelihood that I will get caught.

Since this action is player defined, all of it of course is at guide's discretion but knowing Jill, a good story and logical explanation go a long way to getting the results that you want (or at least a die roll shot at what you want).

Allowing the use of spies and investigator on a player-defined action to assist a hunt would be much like allowing the official Investigate action to assist the hunt. In my mind, it would be a highly beneficial and logical change (knowing where you're looking should make you more likely to find something), but I'm not sure if one would be allowed if not the other...

It's not actually a rules change since player-defined action as described in the BRB lists the professions and resources usable as variable. You can use any profession or resource that the guide agrees is appropriate. This also comes down to guide call. Most of the downtime actions in the book are actually quite narrow. Other guides have run many of the endeavors more broadly (acquire can get you stuff not just resources, protect can work on all people living in one domus, investigate gettin you info other than that listed in book, etc). Jill on the other hand has kept pretty narrowly to what the pre-determined actions in the book allow but has consistantly allowed player defined actions to accomplish more than just descriptive things (in other games I've played in, player defined could never have a game mechanic effect). Personally I would find the former method easier to run if I was a guide but as a player, once I know how things work, both seem like an effective system.