Providence

Providence is a LARP game using Trent Yacuk's Kingdom Come system. It is a game of Fallen Angels and their struggle to survive against the forces of Heaven and Hell and some things in between.

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    Trauma

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    cenobyte
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    Trauma

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 9:44

    There has been some confusion.

    You cannot have Lingering Surface Trauma.

    If you are instructed to take Lingering Trauma, it means you mark off one of your Severe Trauma boxes (some Techniques and situations cause Lingering Trauma specifically). If you have a Vice that causes Lingering Trauma, it will be Severe Trauma.

    Sometimes, this means the Lingering Trauma 'bypasses' Surface Trauma. Sometimes, it means your Surface Trauma is filled.
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    Arc
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Arc on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 12:15

    cenobyte wrote:If you have a Vice that causes Lingering Trauma, it will be Severe Trauma.
    I will adjust my vice and Lingering Trauma accordingly. I know that the traumas I have are currently marked as Surface. Congratulations everyone, I get to be symptomatic every game now! Mua-hahahahaha!

    cenobyte wrote:Sometimes, it means your Surface Trauma is filled.
    I have never heard of an example where trauma is backfilled in the way you mention here. What would be an example of this?
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 13:47

    There are some Techniques that can cause more than one Trauma at a time; it is conceivable that you could get Infected Trauma and/or Lingering Trauma from a single event. Not likely, but conceivable.

    But actually, what I meant was, sometimes, it means your Surface Trauma *has already been* filled.
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    Arc
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Arc on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 18:41

    cenobyte wrote:But actually, what I meant was, sometimes, it means your Surface Trauma *has already been* filled.

    If this means what I think you think it means, I think that clarifies things a little. I read the two sentences together since they appeared linked. Thanks.

    cenobyte wrote:There are some Techniques that can cause more than one Trauma at a time;

    I don't know of any Technique that causes more than one trauma at a time that causes the trauma to actually remain, except for at most one trauma which may be tested for when the Technique ends. I do know there are techniques (Penitence for example) that may cause a person to make Forced Trauma tests for actions taken while under their effects, though it is unclear whether trauma gained in that manner (being Forced) also remains when the effects of the power end. For the Penitence example, it doesn't make much sense that an Irredeemable who is made Typical for a scene who takes a trauma for killing someone should still have it affect them when they return to Irredeemable. But I'm digressing.

    Did you intend this to be the reason why a person's Surface Trauma may already be taken up?

    Also, are you implying that Techniques can cause Lingering Trauma?

    cenobyte wrote:it is conceivable that you could get Infected Trauma and/or Lingering Trauma from a single event. Not likely, but conceivable.

    Only Techniques cause Infected Trauma. As far as I can see is written in the BRB, Infected Trauma is never Lingering Trauma. Why you would compare it at all with Lingering Trauma? Even going from the other effects of Lingering Trauma, I don't see the parallel since Infected Trauma does not ever bypass Surface Trauma in any example given. Do you see some parallel between the two? is there something we are missing?
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    Shamus

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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Shamus on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 20:59

    This all seems quite confusing. Perhaps in the next revision of the book, "trauma" could be used to describe anything lingering, and "wounds" could describe something that is sustained for a scene or whatever. It seems that there are a lot of types of trauma (lingering, infected, etc.), all of which really seem to do the same thing, ie; take up a wound level. Just my opinion, which has virtually no baring on the current discussion. Sorry, carry on.
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    Arc
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Arc on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 21:45

    I find it has great bearing on the conversation at hand. It's a very powerful observation. How and when to take trauma can have SERIOUS effect on how scenes play out and on character development (or lack thereof). This is why I am a strong proponent of Rehabilitation, but also why I believe Lingering trauma to be too difficult to heal in game considering that it can be forced upon you (I make special exception for those trauma received from Vices, they are balanced by added abilities for your character). Once again, I digress.

    At last count I had found nine types of trauma that were listed, not counting wound levels:

    Traumatic Wound Levels have severity (Surface, Severe, Mortal).

    Aligned (p. 147, 150 as opposed to unaligned, are Moral or Immoral, from Techniques or taking Prohibited acts under Morality, only Severe wounds may be Aligned, unclear if Lingering Trauma can be Aligned)

    Unaligned (p. 147 as opposed to aligned)

    Regular (p. 165 as opposed to Infected)

    Infected (p. 147, 165 as opposed to all other kinds, only from Techniques - alway treated as Regular)

    Temporary (p. 148 as opposed to Regular or Lingering, only from Techniques)

    Lingering (p. 148 as opposed to Temporary or Regular, only Sever wounds are Lingering)

    Coerced (p. 149 forced commission of a Prohibited Act *also includes witnessing a Prohibited Act which can also causes trauma -see also below*, or from Techniques - can make an existing trauma aligned if the player has taken a trauma already that event)

    Forced (p. 149 ignores 1 per event trauma limit, Hollow Death, Crucifixion *the wording is unclear but could be interpreted to also include witnessing a Prohibited Act under certain conditions, this is not my own personal reading however*)

    Voluntary (p. 149, 150 taking a trauma by your own volition, ignores 1 per event trauma limit *this is implied not directly stated*, committing a Prohibited by your Morality act)
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    Shamus

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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Shamus on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 22:00

    kay. so how many trauma do i have? and what wound levels are effected? maybe i'll just be bat-s^%t crazy for a while. I digress.

    Anyways, i think that since i have 2-4 things giving me trauma at any given time, plus whatever i might end up taking in game or during a scene, i certainly don't have enough wound levels to accomodate them. then what happens? i would have symptoms? and then how many symptoms would someone have? would i eventually take yet another vice "looney"?

    i think i am even more lost now than when i was completely ignorant of it. That being said, my trauma is generally different types of trauma. since you can't allocate more than one trauma to the same wound level, then arbitrarily, it would spill into other wound levels. since trauma is so easy to get and so difficult to get rid of, maybe there could be a way to simplify 'trauma' in general.

    anyways, i don't get it. i will just ask at every game how crazy i need to be and make sure my wounds are filled in properly.
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    Arc
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Arc on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 22:38

    You get trauma for both Psychological (Resistant Mind) and Emotional (Resistant Soul), each is calculated with the same chart as physical wounds for how many of each severity (Surface, Severe) but I have yet to see anything that provides a character with more than the starting 1 Mortal Traumatic Wound in either category.

    If you have a Lingering Trauma you will have to display your Symptom at least once per scene (rules for ways not displaying your symptom I will not get into here).

    If you have a Severe Trauma of any kind you will display your related Symptom at least once per scene.

    When you take your Mortal Traumatic Wound in either Psychological OR Emotional you have a breakdown. You cannot play your character at games without ST approval until you heal the wound by Rehabilitation.

    If you have Aligned Trauma when taking a Mortal Traumatic Wound you can choose a morality breakdown down that shifts your Morality closer to:

    :Innocent if you have Morally Aligned Trauma. If this would take you from Typical to Innocent you must purchase the Innocent Preeminence or suffer a regular breakdown as above.

    :Irredeemable if you have Immorally Aligned Trauma. If this would take you from Hardcore to Irredeemable you must purchase the Controlled Irredeemable Preeminence of lose your character permanently as they become Uncontrolled Irredeemable.

    Remember, outside of Voluntary Trauma and Forced Trauma you can only take one Traumatic Wound at an event. If you took one Psychological Trauma already, you are protected from further Emotional Trauma AND Psychological Trauma (keeping in mind the previous caveat of Voluntary and Forced Trauma).

    Trying to figure out which kind of Trauma (of the nine previously listed) you are taking at any moment is EXCEPTIONALLY difficult; particularly with so many people new to the system, its complexity, and the sometimes confusing or vague wording of Techniques and Prohibited Acts.

    Unfortunately the BRB clearly states that it is THE PLAYER'S responsibility to track their own Trauma and it is easy to fall victim to a slick player (or just someone who doesn't understand their own Techniques) and be headed to the loony bin in no time. We cannot expect Jill to know how, when or why we have the trauma we do unless she is dishing it out to us and so just showing up and asking how crazy you should be isn't really a viable option, or fair to Jill.

    Being Symptomatic, though realistic at times, can seriously infringe (and to be fair, heighten in other instances) on a story when the symptom and circumstances in a game don't mesh. I mention the downside more strongly because it is more of a danger for any game with young or inexperienced players. Since an outbreak of a Symptom affects all people at the scene it has an TREMENDOUS impact on story by often derailing more than it contributes. It takes an exceptionally gifted or experienced player to know when and how a symptom can be used to heighten a story (personally, I highly doubt I could). Also, it is ironic that mental instability is so common with the Courts (Kings especially) since it single handedly undermines respect in one who holds such a powerful responsibility in the game.
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    Shamus

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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Shamus on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 22:47

    To be honest, i do track my trauma. but my inability to understand (until now....more or less) made it potentially incorrect. maybe next game i will just ask one of you more educated folks to help me understand it in "Joey speak". I'll leave it at that since this could like go on forever. But i much appreciate the explanation, since it makes a lot more sense now than it did before.
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    Arc
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Arc on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 22:51

    In "Joey speak" your response will likely be: Drink until it doesn't hurt anymore. Wink
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    Shamus

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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Shamus on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 22:55

    OooOoo.....i am good at that!
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    Bal

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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Bal on Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 23:18

    I think Trauma has been clarified into incomprehensibility over the course of successive rulebook revisions as it currently stands. As with so many things, it needs to be vastly trimmed down, simplified, and made easier to figure out and manage.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by cenobyte on Wed 23 Dec 2009 - 10:26

    Bal wrote:I think Trauma has been clarified into incomprehensibility over the
    course of successive rulebook revisions as it currently stands. As with
    so many things, it needs to be vastly trimmed down, simplified, and
    made easier to figure out and manage.

    Hear, hear!

    It's not *supposed* to be that difficult. In at least one future iteration of the rulebook, it is clarified quite a bit.

    In essence, there are two areas in which you can get Trauma:
    Psychological (wounds in your Mind Archetype)
    Emotional (wounds in your Soul Archetype)

    There are only three *types* of Trauma
    Infected Trauma (caused by Techniques, which can be Aligned as Moral or Immoral)
    Lingering Trauma (near-permanent Trauma which is extremely difficult to heal, and which can not be taken at the surface level; if you have a Vice or something happens that causes "Lingering Trauma", it will be either Severe (Recommended) or Mortal (Gah).)
    Regular Trauma

    There are four *levels* of Trauma:
    Temporary (usually lasts only for the scene or evening)
    Surface
    Severe
    Mortal (very difficult to heal, and can not be healed on your own - you must have someone else perform a Rehabilitation action on your behalf, etc., etc., etc.)

    There are three ways of *receiving* Trauma:
    Forced (the situation requires you to or Storyguide tells you to take a Trauma. There is no roll. These situations are rare)
    Coerced (this is not a good word, IMO, for what this actually means. It basically means that if there is a situation that breaches your Morality, or if there is a Technique used upon you, you'll be asked to make a Test to see if you take Trauma. You can only take one "Coerced" Trauma per event.)
    Voluntary (you can CHOOSE to take Trauma if you're faced with a situation you feel warrants it. This makes the Storyguide grin.)

    ALL Traumatic wounds are either Aligned (Moral or Immoral) or Unaligned. There are situations where unaligned Trauma can *become* Aligned Trauma. The alignment of your Traumatic wounds is important because if you take enough Trauma to cause a breakdown (ie. if you take your Mortal Traumatic wound), it is your Aligned Trauma which dictates whether you will have a Morality shift, and if so, in which direction your Morality will shift. It's quite straightforward: if you have *even one* Aligned Trauma in the track (Psychological or Emotional) in which you have received your Mortal Traumatic wound, your morality will shift either toward more Immoral or toward more Moral.

    So there aren't nine distinct kinds of Trauma.
    There are three distinct kinds of Trauma, which you can have in up to two Archetypes. Each of those individual wounds could be aligned or not (a binary switch, as it were), and you *receive* them in different ways.

    I'm not sure I'm fond of the "Infected Trauma" thing; personally I think I'd like to see (and no, I'm not suggesting changing this for Providence) two kinds of Trauma (Lingering and Regular). Techniques that cause what is now Infected Trauma would simply cause Lingering Trauma. At that point, Lingering Trauma might be made easier to heal.
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    Shamus

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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Shamus on Wed 23 Dec 2009 - 11:27

    Thanks for clarifying that. And yeah your idea to even further simplify it would be good (as noted in your last paragraph).
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    Arc
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Arc on Wed 23 Dec 2009 - 12:58

    Just to clarify, Forced trauma also occurs in situations where you make tests for trauma where failing the test results in a Forced trauma. (BRB p. 149 or 150). Or has this now been changed?
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by cenobyte on Wed 23 Dec 2009 - 13:31

    IMO, "Forced Trauma" should mean "you are forced to take a Trauma without a test", because otherwise, the difference between "Forced Trauma" and "Coerced Trauma" is very, very smoodgy. Technical term. But in this case, "Forced Trauma" often means "you are forced to make a Trauma Test". So yes, there *are* situations where "Forced Trauma" means 'making Trauma Tests'.

    Some situations will cause Forced Trauma without a test at all (Hollow Death or Crucifixion). Other circumstances will cause you to make tests to avoid taking Trauma, even if the "normal rule" that you cannot take more than 1 Traumatic Wound per event would otherwise have applied.

    Which is to say: You've made a Trauma test, and you have lost, and have taken a Coerced Trauma (still hate that term). someone comes along and gaks you. You will be forced to take not only the Coerced Trauma, but also an automatic Trauma for experiencing Hollow Death.

    I can't off the top of my head think of the kinds of things you'd be asked to make a Forced Trauma test for, other than things that transgress your Morality, but I'm sure they're out there.
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    Molior

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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Molior on Thu 24 Dec 2009 - 13:50

    Personally, I would like to see Forced Trauma tests go the way of the dinosaur.

    Yes, that's right, a meteor should hit them.
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    Molior

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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Molior on Thu 24 Dec 2009 - 14:14

    Also, I totally agree with you on 'Coerced' Trauma, Jill. Really, you only need to label it at all because of the existence of Forced and Voluntary Trauma, the 1-a-game rule, and Jon's noted Alignment shift (which may or may not add anything other than complexity).

    So you've got your 1-A-Game Trauma, and then two types of Bonus! Trauma (Voluntary & Involuntary).

    Jill, a question. If I read the example on BRB pg. 149 correctly, Trauma gained during downtime before an event counts as your 1-A-Game Trauma. Yes/no?
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by cenobyte on Thu 24 Dec 2009 - 14:41

    Molior wrote:If I read the example on BRB pg. 149 correctly, Trauma gained during
    downtime before an event counts as your 1-A-Game Trauma. Yes/no?

    It depends on why you get it.
    The beautiful thing about Forced Trauma is that you *can* receive more than 1 per game. Which is why it probably won't go the way of the dinosaur.

    If you take a Forced Trauma from Hollow Death (f'rinstance) in downtime, I have ruled in the past, and will continue to do so, that this does *not* count toward your "you can only take 1 Trauma per game" total, because Forced Trauma doesn't count toward that total. Any Trauma tests you make as a result of Risk are Coerced Trauma, so they *would* count toward that 1-a-game total.
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    Molior

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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Molior on Fri 25 Dec 2009 - 2:50

    Yeah, I'm resigned to the existence of Forced Trauma, I would just like it to be either your ST tells you get it or they don't. No tests.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by cenobyte on Fri 25 Dec 2009 - 13:52

    Me too. I mean, that's what I'd like "Forced Trauma" to be. Then "Contested Trauma" could be any Trauma you have to test for, and Voluntary Trauma is Trauma you choose to take without a test. Seems simple.
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    Jordan
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Jordan on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 12:44

    I have a few questions about Infected (Technique related) Trauma:
    Can you heal Infected Trauma? If so, how? If not, why? Because it is tracked aside from your normal wounds and you start a new track from each character using an Infecting Technique on you, would you have to (if you are able to) Rehab each individual track? What if the initiating character does not follow up on the initial use of the Technique; would the Infected Trauma deteriorate?
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    Arc
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Arc on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 14:41

    Oooh, I need to add something to those questions:

    If you can Rehab Infected Trauma, which I believe is the case, and Rehab is an in character decision, how could one possibly Rehab Infected Trauma gained from a Moderate or Pure Technique used against them since they feel the effects of the power are their own choice?
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    Friedrich
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by Friedrich on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 17:34

    I understood that each Infected Trauma track was healed individually at the standard difficulties for Surface, Severe, and Mortal wounds. As for Rehabing Moderate or Pure Technique Infected Trauma, I imagine that if you were being told that you were under the effects and made the roll to reduce the manifestation to Conspicuous, you work to heal it then. Of course that works for Moderate reduced to Meek-Manifestation Techniques. I'm not sure about Pure reduced to Moderate-Manifestation; I guess a therapist who manages to recognise the effects of a Moderate-Manifestation Technique could take a Rehab action on behalf of the character and "ask" the character to Aid (i.e., coerce them into taking what they see as an unnecessary amount of time to sit down and talk about something they don't see as a problem).


    I would also say that a case could be made for the subconscious trying to shake off the effects on its own, i.e., without Aid(s), even lacking directed effort or conscious recognition of the Infected Trauma. Then again, I find nothing to that effect in the rules but this is merely my own musing.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Trauma

    Post by cenobyte on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 21:32

    Dang it all. I don't know where my reply went.

    YES, you heal Infected Trauma the same way you heal any other kind of (Non-Lingering, Non-Mortal) Trauma.

    It is assumed you will have a different track for each of the five (? I believe?) Techniques that cause Infected Trauma. This would mean you would actually have twelve "trauma tracks" on your character sheet - one each for 'regular trauma' for Psychological and Emotional Trauma, and five in each Archetype for each of the Techniques that causes IT.

    Trauma does not deteriorate. However, with Infected Trauma, the person using the Technique must use it many time (more than twice) over more than one occassion in order to cause Trauma. So while the uses of the Technique never deteriorate, someone who has used, say, Enslave on you once has that much more of a chance of causing an Infected Trauma on you.

    Johnathan, that's a really good question, and I really like Alan's answer. Carry on.

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