Providence

Providence is a LARP game using Trent Yacuk's Kingdom Come system. It is a game of Fallen Angels and their struggle to survive against the forces of Heaven and Hell and some things in between.

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    Group Training - DRAFT -

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    cenobyte
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    Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 7 Oct 2008 - 16:42

    Hey folks.
    Here's a rundown of the Group Training/Instruction Action. This is a Player Defined Action, and so it won't appear in the book, but we can use it in Providence. There are a couple of things here, one being the Teacher Profession, which I'll explain after the description of the Action.

    Group Training/Instruction
    A player may attempt to train/instruct a group of people. The Difficulty of this Action is determined by how many pupils you are attempting to instruct, as follows:
    Low (2) Difficulty - you may attempt to teach two pupils;
    Medium (5) Difficulty - you may attempt to teach five pupils;
    Hard (8 )Difficulty - you may attempt to teach eight pupils;
    Epic (15) Difficulty - you may attempt to teach 15 pupils.

    For each Difficulty Rank you achieve, you will grant one pupil one Inspiration, to be used in their own Training Action. You cannot 'teach' more than 15 pupils at a time. For each Difficulty Rank
    Achieved, you provide the appropriate number of Advantages to each
    pupil in your 'class'. So if you achieve a Low (2) Difficulty, you
    provide 1 Advantage to 2 pupils; a successful Medium (5) Difficulty
    would provide up to 5 Advantages for up to 5 pupils, etc.. You may
    not provide more than 1 Advantage to any one pupil, and there will
    never be any Advantages "left over". If your class has only 4 pupils
    and you achieve a Medium (5) Difficulty, you will provide each of your
    4 pupils with 1 Inspiration only; there is no 5th Advantage.

    Group Training is a short term action. That means you cannot 'keep' any Marks from month to month.

    Profession: Teacher
    There are teachers you forget, teachers you remember, and teachers who change your life. The Teacher Profession allows you to instruct people in any number of things - basic literacy, accounting, martial arts, or small ballista repair. This Profession helps make it easier to train a group of people. As with other Professions, the Teacher Profession gives you one re-roll per Rank for Effort put in to the action. Every rank of Teacher will also prevent one point of Risk.

    Aiding Group Training
    As with other Group Actions, you can try to Aid a Group Training session. If Molior begins accepting students for his dojo, and gets such a big response that he not only has to turn people away, but he ends up spending all his Effort each month to try to train all these people (teaching takes a *lot* of time and effort), you could choose to give him a hand. Providing, of course, you know what you're doing.

    For every Mark you receive on your Aid action, you provide 1 Mark to the Group Training.

    Accumulated Risk for Group Training and Aid to Group Training will most likely result in injuries.


    Last edited by cenobyte on Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 16:01; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : changed "Inspiration(s)" to "Advantage(s)")

    Marius
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Marius on Tue 7 Oct 2008 - 18:21

    How do Inspirations apply to a Training action? From my understanding of the Endeavour system, Training is a straight roll, with no opposition, and thus no effect from a Prowess boost (ie, an Inspiration). Please explain.
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    Keth
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Keth on Tue 7 Oct 2008 - 22:23

    Im thinking the inspiration is just like using a profession for a re-role or using a resource or something to that effect. Thats only if i managed to gather the correct impression though so i wouldnt bet money on it.

    Edit: By the way i like the idea for the training, i cant wait to give it a shot (well technically i can, and possibly will have to... but you get the idea).
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Wed 8 Oct 2008 - 0:18

    Well, initially, I thought that an Inspiration could be used on the Effort roll (so that if you had that Inspiration, it would be essentially the same as taking a Reckless Action without accumulating Risk on a 5 or 6; essentially, the Storyguide would add 1 to the Training die roll).

    Of course, it *could* be used as a re-roll instead.

    I'm hesitant to use it as an automatic Mark on a Training Action, because I think it's a little unbalancing to allow a successful action to generate 2, 5, 8, or 15 Marks.
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    Keth
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Keth on Wed 8 Oct 2008 - 0:21

    cenobyte wrote:Well, initially, I thought that an Inspiration could be used on the Effort roll (so that if you had that Inspiration, it would be essentially the same as taking a Reckless Action without accumulating Risk on a 5 or 6; essentially, the Storyguide would add 1 to the Training die roll).

    I think i like this more then my guess. Makes more sense as well.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Wed 8 Oct 2008 - 0:23

    To be honest, I'm not even sure if this would work, since nothing else really adds "Inspirations" (+1) to die rolls for Endeavours actions. I think.

    Marius
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Marius on Wed 8 Oct 2008 - 0:26

    Adding something to a die roll is an Advantage, not an Inspiration. This is what confused me.

    But yeah, an Advantage on the Training action makes sense.
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    Keth
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Keth on Wed 8 Oct 2008 - 0:29

    It all depends i guess, But Im pretty sure it should be someone who knows the rules far better then i do to give continued feedback, not myself (at least not untill i get a far better understanding of the rules).

    Edit: like the post above for example, someone who knows more about the rules.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Wed 8 Oct 2008 - 0:45

    Yes. Wrong word. An Advantage.

    Inspirations, of course, add to your Prowess, not to your die roll. I will fixy in the example.
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    Molior

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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Molior on Wed 8 Oct 2008 - 13:44

    This makes me extremely happy, Jill. Possibly delirious with joy.

    Just to make absolutely sure: this Class action will give an Advantage on the final Training roll made to secure the Inspiration, correct?

    Also: will this give any benefit to the Upkeep action needed to maintain an Inspiration gained through Training?

    ALSO also: Training gives a POTENT Inspiration. In case anyone was unclear on that.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Wed 8 Oct 2008 - 14:00

    Just to make absolutely sure: this Class action will give an Advantage on the final Training roll made to secure the Inspiration, correct?

    If the Class Action (snicker) is successful, it will give one Advantage to a character's Effort roll for their own Training Action. Yes.

    Also: will this give any benefit to the Upkeep action needed to maintain an Inspiration gained through Training?

    No.
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    Keth
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Keth on Thu 9 Oct 2008 - 23:40

    Hmm... may i throw a suggestion into this?

    Its probabably overcomplicating this, but maybe create a bonus or a penalty to the taining action itelf based on who you happen to be training, based something similar to the hinderance or advantage you get in combat for having higher warfare or twice the warfare... etc. I only suggest this because it makes little sence that someone with a warfare of 2, could effectivly train someone with say a warfare of 6 or 7. I mean there is some merit to having a punching bag (Meatshields forever!!) but i doubt average joe fallen off the street could effectivly train Rada or Molior, where as in reverse if Rada or Molior were to train them they would probably get much more out of it then being trained by average bob fallen.

    Does that make sense at all? and if it does is it even remotly feasable? or is the absence of sleep getting to me?

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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Marius on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 1:17

    I think it makes some sense, but on the other hand, even an expert can benefit from having someone monitoring his training and pushing him to his limits. Sometimes the ability to teach, guide and judge someone else's limits (and see their weaknesses from outside) is just as important.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 1:46

    I see your point, Dan, but I think it complicates things overmuch. Player X might have a warfare of 9 and player Y a warfare of 3, but that doesn't mean that player X can't learn a new style, greater focus and control, or as Mike mentioned, just *train*.

    I think the average joe off the street *could* provide Rada and Molior with good instruction, if only in the sense that joe off the street is allowing Rada and Molior the opportunity to further hone their skills and always be ready.

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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Rada on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 2:20

    I think ranks in proffession are far more important than Warfare ranks. Those who are naturally good at something are often the worst teachers because they have trouble wrapping their head around the learning gaps of someone who, "just doesn't get it". As well, all actions can have their difficulties modified by the story write-up. The players of characters with good combat abilities will have an easier time justifying some of the descriptions.
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    Molior

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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Molior on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 3:45

    Waaaaaaait a minute.

    Do you need to ROLL to complete a Training action? It may just be because it's 2:30am, but I could have sworn that if you garner a number of Marks on a Training action equal to or greater than your Trained stat, and also equal to or greater than the next difficulty rank, you just SUCCEED. Done. You have a Warfare of 4, and you succeeded against a Medium(5) difficulty? You have a Potent Inspiration when you want it. No pesky rolling, so no Advantages coming into play.

    Now, if I'm right on this, I would strongly suggest that a Class Action give a Mark to each individual partaking. And possibly also on the Upkeep action to maintain Training, if the Class Action is on the same stat that you want to maintain. Due to the need to co-ordinate with a number of other players (they'd have to KNOW that the Class was being offered and mention that they are attending in their own Endeavours), and the fact that the Teacher is basically just GIVING students his/her own Marks, (which they can then only use in a limited way), it seems balanced to me. You could add a clause that you can only attend X Class sessions/month, but I don't think that's really necessary.

    Also, another question. Does it matter exactly when this 'Class' Action (or 'Intensive Training', as Molior has been thinking about it) occurs, if you're performing a Train as a long-term Action? It's very difficult for adept warriors such as Cherior or myself to garner the Marks necessary to complete the Training action, and we very well might not complete the Training in one month. Though, I suppose this only matters if I'm wrong and we get Advantages, not Marks.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 9:26

    Do you need to ROLL to complete a Training action?

    Yes.

    I could have sworn that if you garner a number
    of Marks on a Training action equal to or greater than your Trained
    stat, and also equal to or greater than the next difficulty rank, you
    just SUCCEED. Done. You have a Warfare of 4, and you succeeded against
    a Medium(5) difficulty?

    No. The Difficulty rank for the action must be higher than their chosen Prowess. So if a character has an Accomplished (5) Motive that they wish to train, their Difficulty rank is Hard (Cool. Once the training is complete, if the Potent Inspiration is not used at the next event, it may be retained for future use
    by the Upkeep action. You have to put Effort into Training, which means there must be a roll. I can't think of any downtime action which automatically succeeds simply because you have X in your Prowess.

    I don't understand your second question, Mark, about when the action happens. The Tony Merchant action will give you an Advantage on your Training roll *for the month in which the Class Action is used*. You can use Upkeep to keep the Inspirations you get from your Training action.
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    Molior

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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Molior on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 12:11

    Yes, Tony gives you an Advantage, indeed. However, Your Honour, let me set the scene for you.

    It's the Training of Mr. X, who has a Warfare of 5. He's got a hard road ahead of him, because he knows that he needs to accumulate 8 Marks total just to get a roll. He takes a Class with a good teacher, and spends a lot of Effort on Training himself in Warfare, but unfortunately only gets 6 Marks total. Next month, he easily obtains the other 2 Marks and completes his training. OR DOES HE? *dun dun dun*

    Now, this raises 3 questions. 1) Because that Class did not occur in the month that the Training was finished, is it then wasted? ; 2) What does Mr. X roll when he's trying to complete that Training? Does he get an Advantage for the Hard Difficulty being greater than his Warfare of 5?; and 3), What if Mr. X fails his roll? Has he indeed wasted all of that Effort, and has to begin again from scratch? Or perhaps, if he was to press on and obtain an Epic (15) success, would he get another roll?
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 14:13

    It's the Training of Mr. X, who has a Warfare of 5. He's got a hard road ahead of him, because he knows that he needs to accumulate 8 Marks total just to get a roll.

    Not quite.
    He needs to get 8 Marks *on* his Effort roll to get an Inspiration from his Training Action. He can spend 5 Secular Power and 5 Effort on the Roll, and have a pretty good chance of getting 8 Marks. Partiuclarly if he has taken a Reckless action for his Training.

    1) Because that Class did not occur in the month that the Training was finished, is it then wasted? ; 2) What does Mr. X roll when he's trying to complete that Training? Does he get an Advantage for the Hard Difficulty being greater than his Warfare of 5?; and 3), What if Mr. X fails his roll? Has he indeed wasted all of that Effort, and has to begin again from scratch? Or perhaps, if he was to press on and obtain an Epic (15) success, would he get another roll?

    By my reckoning, that's more like six questions, but who's counting?

    Okay. 1) I'm not sure. Training is an ongoing action. If he got 6 Marks the first month and 2 the next, then his Training Action was successful. He would have an Advantage to his Training roll *in the month he took the class*; either the first month or the second, or both, if he's in the class both months.

    2) The Storyguide rolls Effort Dice for Mr. X's teacher for the month(s) Mr. X is doing his training. If Mr. X's teacher is any good, Mr. X gets an Advantage to his *own* training roll in that month. He gets an Advantage for the roll he's making that month, regardless of what the difficulty is.

    3) If Mr. X fails his Training roll, he can try it again next month, without the Advantage, unless he's going back to class. He doesn't have to start from scratch; he can use the Marks he received from previous months, just like any other Training Action, to try to get that Inspiration. The benefit you get from Class Action (Tony Merchant) is governed entirely by: a) whether the instructor actually holds the class (read: whether the player submits a Class Action/Tony Merchant Endeavour); b) whether Mr. X attends the class (read: whether he submits a Training Action, listing a player who has taken Class Action (Tony Merchant) as one of their Endeavours; c) The instructor is successful in his/her own Endeavours.

    Because you have to use an Upkeep action to keep the Inspiration you gain from a successful Training action, that kind of presupposes you're still *going* to Training, just not necessarily trying to learn *everything* every month. Does that make this answer better or worse? More clear or less clear?
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Molior on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 14:57

    I didn't say it was impossible to get 8 Marks in a month, I said it was hard.

    And Jill, I would still be confused if I hadn't had a good messaging conversation with you.

    Ok, for all who were also confused: you don't roll against the Difficulty on a Train Action. Similar to Acquire actions, you just have to accumulate X Marks, and you automatically succeed. THUS, the Advantage from Group Training is on the EFFORT roll. If you are part of a Class, AND you Train Recklessly, your effort dice succeed on 2's. Note, however, that the Advantage you get from being in a Class does NOT increase your Risk.

    Note also that being in a Class assists your EFFORT. It has no effect on Secular Power you devote to Training, as those automatically garner you Marks.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 15:24

    No, you *do* roll against the Difficulty on a Training Action. But it's an Unopposed Difficulty, which means you know, when you're going in, exactly how much you're going to need to succeed. That Difficulty is related to your Prowesses, and must be higher than the Prowess you are attempting to get an Inspiration for. So if you have 3 Warfare, and you are using a Training Action to get an Inspiration on your next combat where you use Warfare, your Difficulty will be 5 for the action. That means that of all the Effort and Secular Power you allocate to the Action, you must get a 4, 5, or 6 on at least 5 dice for the action to be successful.

    Training (and things like Acquire) uses an Unopposed Difficulty. It means you roll against a set number rather than against another character's or group's Defense or a number that can be modified by character actions (which is called an Opposed Difficulty).

    It's not that you 'automatically' succeed; I don't like that phrase used here, because I think what you're saying is "once you have achieved or surpassed the Difficulty rank, your action is successful". "Automatically succeed" to me means something completely different. **IF** you achieve sufficient Marks on the Effort roll, your action is successful. There is no further roll to make on an Unopposed Difficulty.

    If you receive an Advantage from your Tony Merchant action, the Storyguide applies that Advantage to your Effort roll on your Training Action. I didn't clarify in the original posting that the Advantage was to be added to your Effort Roll. I just said it would be added to your Training Action.

    Risk from Tony Merchant gets allocated to the teacher (who is the one who files the Tony Merchant Action). Risk from Training Actions are allocated to whoever takes the Training Action. A teacher can take a Reckless Tony Merchant Action (which would give her successes on a die roll of 3+) or Cautious Tony Merchant Actions (which would eliminate her risk, and she would then be successful only on a roll of 5 or 6).

    The only place your Prowesses come in to play here is on your Training Action, and then only when you are determining what the Difficulty is for the action. It will always be the next-higher Difficulty Rank above your current Prowess level (so if you have >2 Warfare, your Difficulty for Training is 2; if you have 2-4 Warfare, your Difficulty is 5; 5-7 Warfare, you're shooting for 8, and 8+ is an Epic Difficulty of 15). The Difficulty for Tony Merchant is based on the number of pupils you have in your class (0-2 pupils = Low (2) Difficulty; 3-5 pupils = Medium (5) Difficulty, etc.).

    But you *always* roll your Effort (or use the Marks from your Secular Power) for Endeavours actions. And you never "automatically succeed". You succeed when you achieve sufficient Marks to meet or exceed the Difficulty rank.
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Molior on Fri 10 Oct 2008 - 16:59

    *shrug* Tomato to-mah-to, Jill. If you really want me to, I can say "accumulate Marks until you equal or exceed your Difficulty". All I care about is understanding it, and being able to answer questions.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by cenobyte on Sat 11 Oct 2008 - 9:49

    It makes a difference to me, because I think it's important to be consistent with language when there could be questions.

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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Rada on Sat 11 Oct 2008 - 12:06

    You two are breaking my brain. I thought I understood, but now I'm not sure anymore.

    Please tell me if I got this right.

    Training action: The difficulty of a Training action is equal to the next "level" of difficulty, so either 2, 5, 8, or 15 depending on my Warfare. This can be an extended action, so if I don't accumulated enough marks, I can continue trying next month. Once/if I succeed I ("automatically") gain a potent inspiration that can be used in combat at the next game. I can save the potent inspiration for later games if I spend 1 effort on upkeep (or do I need to get 1 mark for upkeep?).

    Train other: I can train a class of pupils to make their training roll easier. The difficulty I choose (either 2, 5, 8, or 15), sets the maximum # of pupils I can teach in a month. This can also be an extended action, so if I don't accumulate enough marks, I can continue trying next month. Once/if I succeed, in that month and that month only, those who attended my class get a +1 on all rolls they make during their training action, but now only gain risk on a 7 or higher instead of on a 6 or higher. If the pupil doesn't get enough marks to succeed, they may continue training next month as normal, but no longer gain the benefits of the training unless they are trained again.

    Do I have this correct?
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    Molior

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    Re: Group Training - DRAFT -

    Post by Molior on Sat 11 Oct 2008 - 12:45

    Not quite.

    You need 2 Marks to succeed on an Upkeep action. And you can't make Train Other an extended action.

    Other than that, precisely.

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