Trauma

cenobyte wrote:However, with Infected Trauma, the person using the Technique must use it many time (more than twice) over more than one occassion in order to cause Trauma. So while the uses of the Technique never deteriorate, someone who has used, say, Enslave on you once has that much more of a chance of causing an Infected Trauma on you.

Jill, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Could you please reword this or give an example to clarify the meaning?

Also too, each character that uses an Infecting technique causes a new trauma track, so instead of 12, you could have many many more trauma tracks. In theory, you could spend all your time trying to Rehab three different uses of Enslave from three different characters.

Also also too, I'm not really that comfortable with the rationalisation of Rehabbing Infected Trauma that you don't know (IC) that you have....would I spend most of my time for a month trying to 'work through' issues that I don't know that I have? I can see it, trying to figure our what it is that's bothering me to the detriment of undertaking other activities, but I don't really like it.

And I say *nuts* to the notion of turning Infected Trauma into Lingering Trauma. That's way too harsh, even if Lingering Trauma would be easier to heal (which I'm all for). Maybe allowing Lingering Trauma to deteriorate if the Techique is not used month over month would address part of the issue (this way someone could not use Enslave in one month then use is again four months later to boost the effect)?

Alan - I was trying to say two things.
1) In order for an IT-causing Technique to cause Trauma, the Technique has to be used more than once, on more than one separate occasion...I believe this is the case for most, if not all, Techniques that could potentially cause IT.

2) Trauma (Infected or otherwise) does not deteriorate.

Mike - I'm not sure about having to track IT separately for each individual use of, say, Enslave, but it does sound possible.

What I meant by saying "turning IT into Lingering Trauma" is to simplify having to track Technique-caused Trauma separately from every other kind of Trauma. We should talk about the implications of having IT deteriorate.

Jordan wrote:Also also too, I'm not really that comfortable with the rationalisation of Rehabbing Infected Trauma that you don't know (IC) that you have....would I spend most of my time for a month trying to 'work through' issues that I don't know that I have? I can see it, trying to figure our what it is that's bothering me to the detriment of undertaking other activities, but I don't really like it.

I personally think this is solved by just having a more general interpertation of Rehabilitation. For many characters, Rehabilitation doesn't necessarily mean going for counciling or actively trying to work through your issues. So instead of trying to "work through issues" you don't realize you have, instead you spend half the month partying hard to try and forget your troubles, or you notice you're distracted more than usual and spend a lot of time in prayer searching for guidance. Heh, if you're a Nephillim or Affection or someone else who can use technology, you might just spend all your time in a month playing video games to destress. Rehabilitation will be different for different characters, so it doesn't always have to ICly look like focused efforts to work on mental states.

Keep in mind that with Techniques that cause infected trauma, you don't know a Technique is being used if the manifestation is unrecognizable but that doesn't mean you aren't still somewhat aware of the emotional effects... If you've got Enslave Trauma stacking up on you, applied unrecognizabily, you don't think you're under supernatural effect and indeed will rationalize away any evidence you are, but you do know you are starting to become obsessed with person X, having naughty dreams about them frequently, etc, etc. You think it is all you and from your head, but you still know your own feelings(if you didn't, the Technique becomes a lot less useful, eh, because half of the point is causing that emotional distresss). So even though you might not know that you have been supernaturally influenced to be in love with X, you do know you've been thinking about them a lot and damn they're sexy but you can't have them, so maybe you need to work that off with playing a lot of hyperaggressive sports and following up with many cold showers.

cenobyte wrote:1) In order for an IT-causing Technique to cause Trauma, the Technique has to be used more than once, on more than one separate occasion...I believe this is the case for most, if not all, Techniques that could potentially cause IT.

Then I think that I am reading the rules wrong. I was sure that once some of those techniques were successfully used on you and had run their course that the victim made a trauma test against the level of the Technique for Infected Trauma. I am thinking of Covet in particular. Sure, the target might not take the trauma because it is a *test*, but I was sure that it was *possible* to cause an Infected Trauma after ever use of the power on a target.

It takes more than one use for there to be a noticeable effect to others, perhaps, because one has to take a Severe Infected Trauma before a Symptom becomes active. Not to say that the Surface Infected Trauma shouldn't influence role-playing, just that it might be more internalized.

Well, I could be mistaken. I had thought that of the list of five (or so) Techniques that cause IT, most of them had to be used on you more than once. But, to be completely honest with you, I don't know the Techniques by heart.

Wait, you can change trauma to aligned? Mind either giving me the page number in the BRB or just explaining how?

Bal wrote:

Jordan wrote:Also also too, I'm not really that comfortable with the rationalisation of Rehabbing Infected Trauma that you don't know (IC) that you have....would I spend most of my time for a month trying to 'work through' issues that I don't know that I have? I can see it, trying to figure our what it is that's bothering me to the detriment of undertaking other activities, but I don't really like it.

I personally think this is solved by just having a more general interpertation of Rehabilitation. For many characters, Rehabilitation doesn't necessarily mean going for counciling or actively trying to work through your issues. So instead of trying to "work through issues" you don't realize you have, instead you spend half the month partying hard to try and forget your troubles, or you notice you're distracted more than usual and spend a lot of time in prayer searching for guidance. Heh, if you're a Nephillim or Affection or someone else who can use technology, you might just spend all your time in a month playing video games to destress. Rehabilitation will be different for different characters, so it doesn't always have to ICly look like focused efforts to work on mental states.

Keep in mind that with Techniques that cause infected trauma, you don't know a Technique is being used if the manifestation is unrecognizable but that doesn't mean you aren't still somewhat aware of the emotional effects... If you've got Enslave Trauma stacking up on you, applied unrecognizabily, you don't think you're under supernatural effect and indeed will rationalize away any evidence you are, but you do know you are starting to become obsessed with person X, having naughty dreams about them frequently, etc, etc. You think it is all you and from your head, but you still know your own feelings(if you didn't, the Technique becomes a lot less useful, eh, because half of the point is causing that emotional distresss). So even though you might not know that you have been supernaturally influenced to be in love with X, you do know you've been thinking about them a lot and damn they're sexy but you can't have them, so maybe you need to work that off with playing a lot of hyperaggressive sports and following up with many cold showers.

Yeah, I don't disagree that someone can often be bothered by something that they don't understand or haven't completely rationalised...or that you will spend time doing things other than 'talking through your issues' to feel better. The problem that I have and what I was trying to do was bridge that into game mechanics (I know, I know). Maybe it's just that I don't like the idea of submitting downtime actions to rehab trauma that my characher dosen't know he has when there are other things that he wants to accomplish. I also don't like the idea of not being able to fix yourself if you don't know you're broken; said another way is, if you have Enslave stacking up on you, I want to find a way to remedy that (both IC and OOC)...maybe it's just that I'd have to suck it up and ride it out, but - again - I don't like game effects that can essentially topple a character without some manner of recourse built into the system.

And (sorry, I'm at work and can't give a page number, but) the write-up for Infected Trauma in the BRB says that you start a new track for each use of such a technique from a different person and different technique.

cenobyte wrote:Well, I could be mistaken. I had thought that of the list of five (or so) Techniques that cause IT, most of them had to be used on you more than once. But, to be completely honest with you, I don't know the Techniques by heart.

That is fair. I only knew about it because I have one of them. I haven't studied most of the techniques as that decreases my fun. :)

I did reread the five techniques in question, though, and they all cause a test for trauma after every successful use on a target. I was sure that you could only gain one Infected Trauma per person per technique, e.g., if I give you an "Alan's Enslave Infected" Surface Trauma then I can give you no more "Alan's Enslave Infected" Trauma that month, but you could gain a "Jill's Enslave Infected" Trauma. However, I can find no mention of this limit in the BRB and so might be a left-over from when I was playing in Trent's game.

Jordan wrote:And (sorry, I'm at work and can't give a page number, but) the write-up for Infected Trauma in the BRB says that you start a new track for each use of such a technique from a different person and different technique.

Pages 147-148

That is true, so yes, if a group in the game all took Enslave and used it on you at the same time, you would have to create a separate trauma track for each of them. Then you would have to heal each wound separately.

It's a pain, but it has great potential for story, in my opinion; unlike too much Unaligned regular trauma which can take characters away.

Malicia wrote:Wait, you can change trauma to aligned? Mind either giving me the page number in the BRB or just explaining how?

It is done via Coerced Trauma from Techniques, page 149.

If you take a trauma in a game and then have a technique used on you that causes aligned trauma (Bliss, Corruption, Confession, Dispensation, and Penitence to name a few) you test to see if the trauma you already took becomes aligned.

Jordan wrote:Yeah, I don't disagree that someone can often be bothered by something that they don't understand or haven't completely rationalised...or that you will spend time doing things other than 'talking through your issues' to feel better. The problem that I have and what I was trying to do was bridge that into game mechanics (I know, I know). Maybe it's just that I don't like the idea of submitting downtime actions to rehab trauma that my characher dosen't know he has when there are other things that he wants to accomplish. I also don't like the idea of not being able to fix yourself if you don't know you're broken; said another way is, if you have Enslave stacking up on you, I want to find a way to remedy that (both IC and OOC)...maybe it's just that I'd have to suck it up and ride it out, but - again - I don't like game effects that can essentially topple a character without some manner of recourse built into the system.

I think with Unrecognizable Techniques, you are utterly unaware that what has been done to you is supernatural or coerced, but you're still to some degree away of the effects. If someone uses Pure Enslave on you and you get all excited around that person, you'll never admit that it was a compulsion, but it definitely doesn't prevent you from realizing that jeez that person is really hot, you're turned on by them, and you want to make all friendly with them. Similarily, your character might not know that the reason they continue to think about and obsess over this person is because of the lingering effects of the Technique(Infected Trauma), but they do know they continue to obsess over them and it might be causing distress. In short, I think there is a difference between not knowing you were affected by a Technique and not knowing you have trauma from it(as much as any character can "know" about about a game mechanic like Trauma).

I put a post on the rules thread about why I think there are too many types of trauma before I had seen this thread but I will address a slightly different point here. I would really like to see trauma essentially scrapped altogether. I am not advocating a removal of any of the emotion from the game, in fact I think removing trauma would increase peoples desire to play out their characters emotion. I have always disliked systems that essentially say, ok because of this die roll, your character has 4 points of sad. When traumatic things happen to my character I would like a system that lets me decide my character’s emotional reaction to it. I don’t want a mechanic that can be “gamed” into being just points on a page. I know there is “voluntary” trauma but once it’s on the sheet, I no longer have control over when it’s gone. The trauma system actually discourages me from role-playing may trauma (in my case I just ignore the whole voluntary trauma anyways and just try to role-play accordingly)

On the flip side, the system also fails on “forcing” role-playing on those who want to ignore the emotion of the game. Realistically one can just mechanic any trauma they want away by going out and taking enough voluntary aligned trauma to shift morality. “Oh I witnessed a crucifixion, I’ll just go out and do some good deeds and take voluntary moral trauma, oh no, now I’m only hardened. I’ve taken another trauma resisting a technique, no worries, I’ll stab a guy in the face, take some voluntary immoral trauma, and presto, I’m hardcore again”

My point is no system in the world can force a twink to play inconvenient emotions and the good role-playing of angst and trauma doesn’t need dots on a page to support it.

The “trauma” wound boxes could then be used for what seems to currently be their secondary function and just be a mechanic for mind and soul related damage from techniques. Infected “trauma” seems less unwieldy if the other 120 types of trauma are gone.

For the record, I disagree with removing Trauma entirely from the game.

I certainly don't think the intent of Trauma was to force role-playing on people who want to ignore the emotional aspect of the game. And certainly it is true that someone could just go out and 'mechanic' any Trauma away, but a) it doesn't take long for a Storyguide to figure this out and express displeasure, and b) that's cheating, IMO. Sure, there might be some people somewhere who want to cheat their way through games, but nothing the designers or storyguides do will stop that from happening. And, as I said before, that was never, from what I understand, what Trauma was intended to be.

It was intended to be another aspect of the game, not a forcing of angst and good role-playing. It's been my experience that you cannot FORCE good role-playing on anyone.

I think the trauma or not thing really is just a design decision - it is the classic Design What Matters(is something important to your game? Then it should have rules associated with it) vs The Fruitful Void(Is something important to your game? Then make easy rules for everything else to clear the extraneous stuff out of the way, and leave the important stuff to be the focus of roleplay without rules) debate. A lot of people say that Humanity is core to the themes of Vampire, and an excellent mechanic that brings attention to what the game is about. Others say Humanity is a horrible mechanic because it takes what is supposedly the core of the game, and makes it the domain of rules and stats. Obviously, in design philosophy Kingdom Come has been influenced a lot by Vampire(though often its approach is "Let's do the opposite of Vampire!"), and its approach to Trauma is definitely more like Vampire's.

I guess the above contributes less to the discussion and is more just Design Theory geekery. Which I am okay with.

I think as it is, Trauma really just is two extra wound tracks - damage can be done there with Techniques, but also through downtime and character actions. That is fine. I think it is a useful tool, so long as no one tries to use my Trauma to badger me too much about how to play my character, really. Keep in mind, that Fallen are supposed to be far more volitile and fragile emotionally and psychological than humans. Think mature minds, but with a handle on their emotions roughly equivilent to a thirteen year old going through their first romantic entanglement. Of course, since this is spelled out in the opening bits of the setting stuff, and the number of people who have access to and have read that is very small.....

Wade, I think you're being terribly generous. I would say emotions roughly equivalent to ten year olds being told they cannot have a DS. Say.

b) that's cheating, IMO.

Only if you redefine the definition of cheating. Cheating means breaking the rules; It does not mean playing by rules that have undesired consequences. This encapsulates my entire dislike of trauma. As soon as you apply a mechanic to something, you define how it works in the reality of the game's world. A player who utilizes those mechanics for a character's benefit is simply running a character that isn't blind to the world of their own existence. The trauma system as it currently stands essentially takes many elements of the game that should be role-playing and brings them down to the level of roll-playing. For note I'm not opposed to the general idea of mental and soulful wounds that can be caused by techniques and such, it's the morality and emotion based aspect of trauma that I find unappealling.

But nobody's telling you how to play your character when you have Trauma, Dave, so I don't agree with you. If you don't want to take Trauma, don't do things that would cause you to take Trauma. And if someone *causes* you to take Trauma, retaliate. This is so much a game of character v. character...

Cheating is ignoring mechanics and rules to get an unfair advantage over others. Ignoring Trauma has less to do with undesired consequences. Ignoring penalties from Traumatic wounds is absolutely no different from ignoring penalties from physical wounds, and I don't think anyone would argue that it's okay to ignore pain penalties that put you at a disadvantage in Warfare rolls simply because you don't like them. It's cheating.

The argument has been made that if you take *enough* Trauma (and have a breakdown) or if you take a Symptom, you might be playing a version of your character you didn't intend to play. If you take certain *kinds* of Trauma (from Techniques, specifically), it will alter the way your character *ought* to act. This second scenario is no different from any game wherein one character can affect the mind of another. I've always looked at Trauma as an opportunity. An opportunity to try new directions out with your character...an opportunity to *let* changes happen to your character. I know some people see Trauma as a punishment, and certainly, if you get enough of it, it very well may be. But nobody forces you to play anything; if you choose not to play a Symptom, for instance, you're not only cheating (IMO), but you're a bad roleplayer.

cenobyte wrote:The argument has been made that if you take *enough* Trauma (and have a breakdown) or if you take a Symptom, you might be playing a version of your character you didn't intend to play. If you take certain *kinds* of Trauma (from Techniques, specifically), it will alter the way your character *ought* to act. This second scenario is no different from any game wherein one character can affect the mind of another. I've always looked at Trauma as an opportunity. An opportunity to try new directions out with your character...an opportunity to *let* changes happen to your character. I know some people see Trauma as a punishment, and certainly, if you get enough of it, it very well may be. But nobody forces you to play anything; if you choose not to play a Symptom, for instance, you're not only cheating (IMO), but you're a bad roleplayer.

I'll also point out if one reads the rules for Symptoms, they aren't actually nearly as harsh as one might at first think upon hearing stuff described. Even if you do get down to manifesting a Symptom, they're mostly pretty manageable without breaking your character, especially when you consider presumably you're choosing Symptoms that make sense for your character.

Breakdowns are a bit stranger, because Real People Don't Work That Way. If I was playing a human being in KC, I'd probably really dislike the Breakdown rules, especially with how they interact with morality rules. But they're fine for supernaturally driven emotionally fragile creatures like the Fallen - their very nature pushes them towards extremes.

I think Breakdowns are easier to stomach in games where Trauma is both a) harder to get, and b) easier to remove. It seems in Providence Trauma is both given out a lot more frequently, and also seems folks are having a harder time getting rid of it than in most Kingdom Come games I've played in. I do not know if this is a byproduct of a) players having less system mastery(in most of the KC games run in Edmonton, there are usually at least a couple players who've totally games the Secular Actions system and are capable of pulling off several successful Therapies each month), b) there being stylistic differences in how KC is run, or unspoken assumptions about stuff that aren't in the rulebook and thus Jill wouldn't know about, c) the rules have changed to make trauma more severe from previous editions, or d) the rules just aren't properly understood(I know there was definite confusion about immoral therapy, not helped by a cut and paste error in the BRB).

I think the last counterintuitive thing about Trauma is you'd think it'd be harder to get the more you have of it. It'd make sense if it took more stimulus to cause a Severe wound than it does to cause a Surface, for instance. It does seem very possibly for characters to be papercut to death with a series of fairly minor incidents. I guess that is what the one a month rule is supposed to protect against, but there are too many exceptions to it(I think many of the problems could be solved if the one a month rule applied to all "real"(not infected or temporary) Trauma, period).

But, then, the award for best trauma/sanity system I've ever seen still goes to Unknown Armies, hands down. Ye gods do I adore that madness meters system, because it just seems to make so much sense - easy to work with game wise, and yet still mirrors something of how it intuitively feels to me these things should work. Amusingly, Trent has told me he intensely dislikes the UA Madness Meters system - I believe he thought it was too complicated.

I have no problem with either trauma or morality. I like having both in the game. I'm not saying that they are perfect, but I would prefer to have them than not.

I do agree that this game has seen far more trauma than I am used to seeing in KC but I'm not sure why that is. I do know that the worst blow to healing trauma was the need to make an opposed roll to heal it rather than healing it automatically once you reached the difficulty in marks. Sure the roll means that I have the possibility to heal trauma after 2 marks, but if I roll poorly I might still be trying to heal that wound at 30 marks.

Point #1: The rules allow for all of one's non-lingering trauma to disappear when one shifts morality. This is the rule of the game. By definition, playing by the rules is not cheating.

Point #2

If you don't want to take Trauma, don't do things that would cause you to take Trauma.

This statement once again illustrates my point in that it shows how the trauma system discourages rather than encourages interesting role-playing. I do want my characters to do things that cause them emotional distress but I would rather role-playing not dice rolls determine how much it affects my character, how it manifests, and how I recover from it.

Point #3: No mechanic for trauma, morality, symptoms, or breakdowns could ever capture the complexity of how these affect people in the real world. I have never seen a system that tries to, without it reducing these elements to overly simplistic caricatures.

"no worries, I’ll stab a guy in the face, take some voluntary immoral trauma, and presto, I’m hardcore again"

I just did this. I can see how you might consider it cheating, but then again, haven't we just gone over how different people heal in different ways? Malicia has been agitating to hurt or kill somebody for a long, long time. She feels much better now that she has.

To point #2 and #3... hear, hear.

I cannot find anywhere a mention of healing your trauma in the BRB when you undergo a Breakdown. I know this has been used in older games, but the wording in the BRB under Breakdowns only seems to indicate that instead of taking your Mortal Wound that would result in an Unaligned Breakdown you may in specific circumstances under go a Morality Shift. This is particularly supported by the lines in the Healing Trauma section where it indicates Trauma may only be healed by Secular Actions. I was under the impression that Breakdowns did heal Trauma based on previous rules discussions, but I cannot find where in the BRB that is supported.

This implies, to me, that the Mortal Wound is avoided (read, not taken) and a Morality Shift occurs instead; no other Trauma is healed.

If someone can find where in the BRB it explicitly mentions that the Trauma is healed or otherwise gotten rid of, I would appreciate it. Otherwise I believe we have yet another clarification which might have to be put in the rules if Trent still intended Morality Shifts to reset your Trauma, which Trauma is healed (ie, is Lingering exempt or healed as well?) and how long the Morality Shift takes to come into effect.

The guidelines for Breakdowns vs. Breakthroughs are on p. 154 under "Aligned Trauma"
When you take your Mortal Traumatic Wound, you will have a breakdown.

IF you have *any aligned Trauma at all*, you will undergo a Breakthrough, which is when your Morality Shifts toward the side of the spectrum of the Aligned Trauma (ie. if you have Immoral Aligned Trauma, your Morality will shift one step toward Hardcore; if you have Moral Aligned Trauma, your Morality shifts one step toward Typical). If you undergo a Breakthrough, then *all the Trauma you have in that Track* is automatically healed.

IF you have *no* Aligned Trauma at all when you take your Mortal Traumatic Wound, you undergo a Breakdown, which normally makes your character unplayable.

Keep in mind that Trauma can only be Aligned if it's Severe or Mortal. Surface Trauma is never Aligned Trauma (p. 147).

Also on p. 147 is the note that Aligned Trauma "may serve to prevent the breakdown, but at the cost of changing a character's Morality".

If it is not clear in the BRB that a Breakthrough = "heals" all the Trauma you have in that track, that adjustment has certainly been made in subsequent editions. It was very clear to me that a Breakthrough removes all the Trauma in the track in which you incur the Mortal Traumatic Wound. This is how Mortal Trauma has been dealt with in Providence - if you take a Mortal Trauma and have *no* Aligned Trauma in that track, you have a Breakdown (which normally makes you unplayable). If you take a Mortal Trauma and have *any* Aligned Trauma in that track, you may choose to (but do not HAVE to) have a Breakthrough, which shifts your Morality (toward Hardcore = you just don't care anymore; toward Typical = You have a serious and desperate attack of guilt and change your way of looking at the world) and removes ("heals") all the Trauma you currently have in that Track.

With the exception of Lingering Trauma, which must be dealt with differently.

Thank you for pointing out that that one line about Breakthroughs "healing" Trauma may be missing from the BRB.

"If you undergo a Breakthrough, then *all the Trauma you have in that Track* is automatically healed."

"With the exception of Lingering Trauma, which must be dealt with differently."

Just to be absolutely clear on this: If you have a lingering trauma in a track and then suffer a Breakthrough (ie, breakdown + morality shift) then you still have the lingering trauma. Yes?