Kingdom Come Setting

**sigh**

There is no hard and fast rule for what *kind* of technology or energy or chemicals or whatever can be used. It's a mistake to try to think about this game in those terms. The rules are not concrete (which is to say, there is usually an exception to every rule), the guidelines are pretty fluid, and there are large chunks of the setting that simply aren't explained. Mostly because it doesn't matter.

I mean honestly, I find the degree to which the silliness of this discussion has gone a little...well...silly.

No, the computer will not work regardless of who built it or whose mouse is powering it in a wheel attached to the USB. Regardless of whether you plug it in to the wall or the windmill, everything a computer does is kind of based on electrical impulses. Your Nimbus would just fry the thing. In fact, most Fallen probably can't even have a computer or television in their domi very long.

I'm tempted to say that stereo equipment and record players might work, simply because music is good for setting.

So yeah, it's not good to try to think of things in concrete terms.

"Technology" simply doesn't work for Fallen. That's it.

If you're looking for a 'year point', I'd say anything really before common history. Which is to say, before Greco-Roman, Chinese, Japanese (and other Eastern), and Mayan civilisations. Anything invented after that tend to eventually cease to function.

To answer some of your list of questions, Dan:
What exactly defines technology.

As Johnathan mentioned, anything alchemical, chemical, and more involved than simple levers will cause Consternation.

I heard that simple locks still work for fallen. As well as things that dont have any real moving parts. I think I heard that an english medieval longbow will also still function.

It depends on the situation, really. In general, it's not the number of moving parts, but rather what the impact has meant to 'humanity' or history, if you will. The more of an effect the item/technology has had on the history of human culture, the less able Fallen are to use it. So they're pretty okay with spears, swords, even bows (although as Ranged Weapons, they aren't effective against Fallen)...simple levers, pulleys, and fulcrums...wheels. And when I say "it depends on the situation", I mean that if it's very important to the scene that you be able to lock a door, regardless of the simplicity of the locking mechanism (deadbolt, for instance), it will most likely fail. If it isn't imperative that the technology function, you might get away with being able to use it. Lighting a gas range, for instance, might be possible if you're not attempting to commit suicide or blow up the house. The gas range will need to be replaced *very* frequently, of course (so it's better to have Affections who can help you with this stuff).

But what makes it so those things can't be used?

The fact that the Fallen are not human...and moreso, are necessarily outside of human development. Also, the awesome mystery of the powers that fuelled creation, which will most likely never be explained nor explainable.

Or is it limited by what humans have designed and fallen have not?

The Fallen are a product of creation, but they have not developed like the humans have; they have not *used* creation to their advantage. In fact, they were without a society of their own until the Codex. They mimicked the humans, but did not have a hand in the development of humanity...

Does it still count as tech if the fallen built it, or can build it blindfolded, themselves? An ex-special forces member for example, might know how each individual piece of a handgun works to make the whole. Would that bypass the tech rule? Or on a similar note, what if that ex-special forces member became a blacksmith after reckoning? and then forged each individual part, and then put it all together himself to make a firearm?

Erm. Okay, I'm'a sound like a complete jerk here for a moment; please bear with me.
If you're agoraphobic, it doesn't matter if you shove a bucket on your head and blindfold yourself and wear six layers of clothes; you still know when you're outside of your safety zone. It has nothing to do with what you're able to see. The ex-special forces member would forget how each piece of a handgun works. She wouldn't be able to forge the parts, because she wouldn't remember how they go together...and even if she did, as soon as she tried to use the gun, it would probably explode in her hands.

Okay, that wasn't the jerkish part. This is:
I think that example is kind of ridiculous. Technology doesn't work for Fallen; it doesn't matter if they're blindfolded when they try or if they make their own gattling gun or build their own cars.

There are manifold and many reasons why it doesn't work; I'm sure you can find a different explanation from anyone who's ever played the game. Maybe there is no one real answer. Maybe there is and we just don't know it yet. Maybe a Fallen's soul/essence is just too bloody powerful for anything invented after the fall of Babel. Or of Sodom and Gomorrah. Or of the Fallen themselves.

Ultimately, and much to the chagrin of less abstract gamers, all of these rules can be broken or stretched by the Storyguide. But a general rule of thum is that if it's really really important for something to work, chances are better than "really really good" that it won't work".

I don't know if that's helpful or not.

As for the synthetics and polymers, that's pretty trivial. IT would depend on the character. Someone like Sacha's first character, sure. I'd say he had to spend Wealth on new clothes every couple of months.

The thing to remember is that the thing that is most important is story, not rules. If it's really important to the story that your clothes fall off at fairly regular intervals (::blush:: not that I'm complaining...), then that's what's going to happen. Or maybe you develop a horrible horrible skin rash that just doesn't go away until you stop wearing polyester. But pens and shoes and clothes are pretty unimportant to the story as a whole, and to most players' characters' stories. A kevlar vest, however, is, at least in theory, pretty bloody important, and so would break down pretty fast.

Consider this: your Nimbus just effs things up. Your Nimbus, which was created as part of your Essence since the very beginning of Creation, cannot be in proximity to 'technology' because it begins to crackle in the Symphony and cause some kind of crazy feedback, like those times at the Pixies concert when Frank Black is all old and fat but still super pretentious and they go to grab a new guitar and get the feeds too close to each other and a ginormous screech of feedback fills the room so that the unborn child in your womb starts pounding on the inside of your uterus. Say.

Hm. I must be losing my touch...

on the Wealth note I'd like to add that the game as envisioned didn't care about accounting. It is generally assumed that Fallen have ways of getting what they need. It is why, if it isn't too important to story, you can pick anything you want for a domus from a cardboard box to that mansion on the hill. Wealth just makes it easier to explain the hows and whys and comes through in a pinch when it is important to story.

I guess you can try equating it to when they try to "explain with science!" the stuff in sci-fi, they don't bother unless it is important to showcase how brainy the engineer is even if the dialogue is total buffoonery...or the nonsensical Latin that people do for exorcisms, what is important is that "ooooh Latin hurts bad things and is magical". It all comes down to if it is important to what is going on and what result you are shooting for out of it, for any action or element of story.

And the corollary to that is that you probably shouldn't assume something will be easily achievable just because you don't think it's important to the story. There are some cases where your SToryguide will ask you to spend time/effort/wealth to get what you want, because there might be forces at play that You Don't Know About.

But generally, yes. Think of watching a dramatic, epic movie. It'd be pretty boring if the main characters actually took the time they need to have a tinkle every couple of hours, or if you spend twenty minutes watching Our Hero do his taxes? On the other hand, if you're watching "Brokeback Mountain", don't expect Darth Vader to show up.

...actually...that would have made that movie tolerable.

Thanks for the answers. I am sorry I bothered you all with my silly question, it won't happen again.

Adrienne - no, your question wasn't silly. It was a good question.

The *silly* question was the one about being able to make a gun if you were blindfolded, or able to use a computer powered by a bicycle. I mean, I don't mean to be insulting; I just found those two questions a little silly.

(Jill, you weren't losing your touch.)


I have mostly understood the no technology rule on somewhat of an intuitive level largely from having several lengthy discussions with Trent about it. However, if this game ever is sold to someone who isn't within a degree of separation from Trent, this element of the game will probably be run very differently in each game. Even with people who have discussed this with Trent, there are some pretty wide variations on how this rule is interpreted. For example, whether or not Fallen can watch TV has been ruled on differently in almost every game I’ve played in (you might think that there could only be two different answers to this question but there are at least 5).

I think part of the problem is that the phrase "it's not about the mechanics, it's about the story" keeps getting thrown about. In the case of the no-tech rule it's the actually complete opposite. The no tech rule largely only affects objects when they would have a mechanical advantage. Story wise the appearance of a character’s costume is far more important than if it’s bullet-proof, yet every single character at the last game was wearing clothes that couldn’t have existed 100 years ago, let alone three thousand.

Again it’s also not about how “much” a character is affected by the technology. It’s about how mechanically a character is affected by it. Food processing and central heating have a far bigger affect on characters than a gun. These however do not have game mechanics associated with them, so they work fine. The setting of the last game is also a great example. It didn’t look like it but we were surrounded by technology. The technology behind that greenhouse had a huge affect on the feel of the game. However it didn’t affect the mechanics of the game.

Another key element is the “coolness” factor and again this is comes down largely to Guide opinion. I think every KC character I’ve ever seen Trent play has worn sunglasses. Trent thinks Angels wearing sunglasses are cool. Trent does not think Angels watching television are cool. In Trent’s games sunglasses are ok technology, TV is not. Jill gave a great example of music. Jill likes the atmosphere music creates, so she may say stereos are fine.

I would also say that the unplayability factor is pretty big as well. If the game becomes virtually unplayable without having to pretend something isn’t there, the technology is fine. The greenhouse, modern clothing, indoor lighting, carpets, and central heating all would fall into this category as well. I think this may be where the “oh that’s just silly” comments come from as well. If we can’t play in a location that has carpets or central heating we would be pretty limited to where/when we play. If we all pretended that all the characters were actually wearing tan or grey tunics instead of the outfits they were in, the game would be less fun. So yes it makes absolutely no internal logic that some technology still works fine, but the game would end up becoming “silly” if it didn’t.

Eliel wrote:I think part of the problem is that the phrase "it's not about the
mechanics, it's about the story" keeps getting thrown about. In the
case of the no-tech rule it's the actually complete opposite. The no
tech rule largely only affects objects when they would have a mechanical advantage. Story wise the appearance
of a character’s costume is far more important than if it’s
bullet-proof, yet every single character at the last game was wearing
clothes that couldn’t have existed 100 years ago, let alone three
thousand.

I don't see how that's different from the "story is more important than mechanics/rules" thing, though. Because your statement just proved my point...which is that if technology would serve to give an *advantage* (other than just having gorgeous Adrienne looking fabulous, which is a hell of an advantage, really...), it just won't work. It will fail, or simply fail to function.

Suffice it to say, television and movies and computers and telephones are generally 'right out', so unless you get your pop culture references from magazines, you're just not getting 'those kids today' (snicker). Also why I suggest that characters start the game with 20 or fewer Reckoned years under their belts...so that they can at least have an understanding of the technology they are no longer able to use.

I think the key to your point is game mechanic advantage. You bring up Adrienne looking fabulous and I think that illustrates the point very well. Her use of technology in her clothing actually does give her a pretty big advantage. Her ability to distract and seduce is often a very powerful tool. Her hotness probably protects her far more than a bullet-proof vest ever could, just not in a game mechanic way.

This rule is a very intuitive one and it to a large extent requires players be able to read the guide's mind as to what tech they will view as verboten. You talked about how a fallen can't get pop culture from tv but can from magazines in Providence. I could easily see a guide ruling that the magazines are very much modern technology with their use of photographs and the printing press. Since the advantage gained from them is no different from the advantage gained by the same info learned on TV, they would cause just as much confusion. The flip side is that in some games a fallen sitting and watching tv is just as fine as a Fallen walking across a carpetted floor. When I ran a KC game, my ruling on the TV thing was that watching tv was fine as long as it was mindless entertainment but as soon as you started watching the news to try and gain information, it would start to become confusing.

In reality, 99.9999 % of all objects any character would use on a day to day basis involve "modern" technology. Furthermore, to the character, it all gives an advantage, otherwise they wouldn't be using it.

My point is that, while this is one of the rules/setting things that I actually quite like about the game, it is by no means "silly" for someone to be incredibly confused about how it works. I think this rule is more logical to rules guys like me, but can be quite confusing for players who think about story/character first and mecnanics second/last/not at all, like Adrienne. The reason is that the determining factor isn't how much of an advantage an object gives the character; It is about how much the object gives a game mechanic advantage or to a secondary extent, affects the feel of the game from a third person perspective. Both of these things require out of character logic because in character logic doesn't account for them.

A solution that works in many circumstances is just to decide for yourself what works and doesn't. Until I read Jill's previous post, I had assumed the tv thing worked the way I had always run it. I have played 2 characters and almost a year with that misconception about Providence. It affected how I viewed my characters' lives but had no real affect on the story. I've had IC conversations with other characters that have often included, "really that still works for you?!", and I've been on both sides of them. If I think my character can't use a stove during downtime and another player does, no one is really hurt by it.

I certainly agree that it's not silly to find some of the rulings, particularly the intuitive ones, confusing or frustrating. What I found silly was the suggestion that technology would work if Fallen made it themselves. And the idea of a bicycle-powered computer still has me in the giggles.

The bottom line is that, like you said, I don't particularly care about niggly little things like whether Fallen can watch "Donahue"...or, for the younger players, "Dr. Phil". I agree that keeping up with current events will be confusing - and painful - the majority of the time. Similarly, I've told people that riding in a car isn't really all that disturbing, unless you really really need to be somewhere, in which case, you'll be physically ill for X amount of time afterward (and in some cases, "modern" travel ...anything at a pace faster than walking... will cause physical damage).

My take on the whole thing really kind of goes on a case-by-case basis. I mean, I'd LOVE it if Elleka showed up nekkit because her polyester disintegrated ("A funny thing happened on the way to the Census"), but that's really not practical...I suppose...but in the long run, it really doesn't have a large impact on the story we're trying to tell. On the other hand, if Elleka had a shindig at her house and needed to make blender drinks for everyone, she'd probably have to get her Affection to do it. Maybe. Again, it depends on the situation.

That's why I said that it's really difficult...I'd say verging on impossible...to make a blanket statement about what *kinds* of "technology" cause pain/aggravation/consternation. My general rule of thumb is that if it gives, and yes, a *mechanical* advantage (and I'm talking game mechanics, not mechanical mechanics...did I just say that?), it won't work.

While most humans consider 'technology' to be things that besimplificate life (remember those ads from the 50s advertising home robots for 'harried housewives'?), I think of it this way: humans invented things to make their lives simpler in some cases, and in other cases, to make large tasks more manageable (creating more effective weapons offers a fairly quick way to win a battle; the industrial revolution took the work out of the hands of many and mechanised it, which saved time and money (and ruined many lives)). But the Grigori were assigned to humans as "watchers", not as participants, and so this is part of their curse. They must live among the humans, but can enjoy very few of the trappings of humanity, other than strong emotions and physical sensations.

Modern machines and technologies were created, in a manner of speaking, to serve humans. Grigori are outside of that relationship, and were created to serve the Creator.

I don't know if that clarifies things or muddies them further...

"Regardless of whether you plug it in to the wall or the windmill,
everything a computer does is kind of based on electrical impulses."

"The *silly* question was the one about being able ... to use a computer powered by a bicycle."

In my own defense, you totally didn't understand my question. My question was about a computer that *isn't* powered by electrical impulses, because they don't have to be. That's simply the most compact way to make them. I mean, we were trying to pinpoint what it is about technology that doesn't work for us. I wasn't asking the question because I wanted to make a computer that doesn't use electricity, but rather because it would help me to understand for future reference when exactly the line is crossed.

I realise that, Laura, but it's a question that's impossible to answer in any concrete fashion. I understood what you were saying; I just found the idea a bit silly. Not *stupid*, but silly. Huge difference. Silly things make me smile and giggle. Stupid things make me angry, defensive, and aggresive.

I certainly wouldn't let you have a steam- or bicycle or non-electricity-powered computer, because it's still *modern technology*. There wasn't any technology like this in nirvana, and the effects of your Nimbus would render *any* "modern machine" useless to you, from an adding machine to a boiler. (Yes, you can still use an abacus; no, you can not devise a mechanised abacus to do calculations for you.) For the record, I have no concept of how a computer would work without some kind of electrical impulse, however generated. We should talk.

The silliness in the questions comes in in the following fashion:

Both examples given seemed to me to be attempts to skirt the 'Fallen cannot use technology" rule. I don't think anyone would argue that a computer (powered by fish, fruit, or Elvis' sweat) is still a product of technological (and mechanical, for that matter) advancement.

The genesis of the piece of equipment doesn't matter. The fact remains that even if a brand-new DeLorean dropped out of the sky from Heaven itself, Fallen still couldn't drive it (well, okay, if it fell out of the sky, I think no one would be able to use it, technically).

It is a mystery why Fallen cannot use modern inventions. And again, by "modern", I mean really anything invented after the beginning of 'modern' or 'modern historical' civilisation. If the Babylonians didn't have it, neither can the Fallen. For the most part.

There are *always* exceptions...as evidenced above. But for the most part, your Storyguide will not allow Fallen to drive cars, use computers, use firearms, host a radio show, record an album (actually, I *might* encourage Fallen to record an album if it was done in the same manner it was done in the early 1800s, just because that's cool...or on a wax cylinder...), work in a factory...actually, for that matter, most Fallen don't work at all. Lucky bastards.

Okay. I'm rambling.

I want you to come away from this discussion with the following knowledge:
1. There is no hard and fast rule about *which* technology doesn't work for Fallen. I don't want computers, TVs, phones, cars, guns, etc., to be useable by Fallen in Providence. Other Storyguides in the future might make different decisions.

2. It's not the method by which the technological marvels are created that's important; it's the Fallen's nature as celestial beings versus human ingenuity. It's part of the Curse.

3. The rule is dynamic - your Storyguide might allow some things if she feels it's dramatic or interesting. She will also report that some things spontaneously break or cease to function at Most Inopportune Times.

Also, Adrienne would look just as fabulous in cotton, wool, linen, and leather. Particularly leather. Mmmmm.

Lessee... *goes on wikipediea*
For pendantism and humor's sake...

Earliest mechanical computer - around 100 BC.

Area referred to as Babylon, with people referred to as Babylonians - up until 650 AD.

Beginning of Modern Era - 1500 AD.

**sigh**

You're not helping, Anna.

I'm quite sure the earliest modern computer built in 100 BCE is not capable of surfing the 'net. It *is* completely capable of mapping the stars, which is useful.

So sure, you could use THAT computer.

In fact, maybe that particular computer (called the Antikythera mechanism), since there was only evidence of part of one ever found, was given to the Humans in Greece by Some Advanced Culture....Ooooneeenoooooneeenooooo!!!!

cenobyte wrote:In fact, maybe that particular computer (called the Antikythera mechanism), since there was only evidence of part of one ever found, was given to the Humans in Greece by Some Advanced Culture....Ooooneeenoooooneeenooooo!!!!

Lol!

ahh thank you jill i needed that

Somebody had said that the rule was how something is powered, and I was trying to pin it down further. Evidently that is not the rule at all. As you have said, there is no rule. And that will continue to be frustrating for those of us who wish we knew whether certain objects work for us or not. We will have to bug you about it every time in order to know, rather than being able to figure it out ourselves because there is a line and we know where it is.

And because I can't let it alone:
"I'm quite sure the earliest modern computer built in 100 BCE is not
capable of surfing the 'net. It *is* completely capable of mapping the
stars, which is useful.

So sure, you could use THAT computer."

No, but you could probably easily adapt it to do several things that you don't us being able to do. Such as being an adding machine. If I built a series of pipes that channelled water that could add two-digit numbers for me, that's clearly not OK, so saying that this would be is only confusing things more.

There is a rule.
The rule is this: Technology does not work for Fallen.

It's the simplest rule in the book (and it's one of the ones most open to interpretation by storyguides).

I honestly don't see why this is a discussion at all.

There are plenty of people who need adding machines or calculators to help them with math. It doesn't affect my story at all if you use the World's First Computer or a sextant or an abacus to make you better at math or to help with your calculations. That doesn't affect the story at all, and it doesn't give you a mechanical advantage (thanks for the term, Dave!) over any other character at games (unless the contest set for the Knight is to calculate the average wing speed of an African Swallow). If you really really want a water machine that adds two-digit numbers for you, go ahead. Take your downtime and use Effort to make one, and know that unless you have an actual working model at the games, it's not going to be useable to do anything *except* add two-digit numbers. Sure, you can perform some interesting calculations on it, and if those calculations might affect the story in a major way, Something Else will happen. Maybe the machine will give you wrong information. Maybe all the water will leak out.

Adrienne's question was a good one - polymers and synthetics are created using Technology. But Fallen aren't *using* the technology that created those polymers and synthetics; they're simply wearing the polymers and synthetics. And if it doesn't give you a mechanical advantage, or if it doesn't have an effect on the story, you're good.

I also can't imagine why you'd have to come and ask me every time whether something will work.

I know there are folks in this game who just can't stand not knowing something, or who are very uncomfortable with open-ended guidelines. But I've already pointed out the things that will not work for Fallen on a regular basis. I'll do that again, to be clear.

In Providence (this might change with other storyguides), Fallen will become violently ill if it is extremely necessary that they get from one point to another in a car, on a bicycle, in a bus/train/aeroplane/boat/moped. Please don't ask me about rickshaws, because we don't have them in Regina. Fallen will experience tremendous headaches, disorientation, and nausea when concentrating at all on a screen of any kind. Computers, cell phones, telephones, fax machines, printers, photocopiers...any kind of electronics will short out as soon as you touch them. In some cases, if you pass within a certain range around them.

Household electricity used every day for mundane things, as well as running water and heating, will function just fine most of the time, but there will be times it will not be useable. Consider that for the most part, you can live your life as any other person would, had computers and television and telephones and talk radio never been invented. You can activate stereo equipment as long as it plays music, but you cannot use IPods or walkmans or anything else in terms of a personal recording device.

Forks, spoons, and knives are fine. But you cannot use vacuums. I'm kidding about vacuums.

It's not about moving parts (necessarily, but in some cases it might be); it's not about electronics (usually); it's not about *when* the stuff was invented. It's about how useful it might be to you. The more useful it is **IN TERMS OF THE STORY AND PLOT**, the less likely it is you'll be able to use it.

So if your chosen weapon is a switchblade, that's fine. Use the switchblade (but don't get arrested with it). If you want to be horribly affected by electricity, and only ever work by candle-light, that's great. I encourage that. If you and your buddies all go to a movie, that's not important to the story for the most part, but you won't be able to retain any information from the movie. You'll be the guy walking out afterwards saying, "I don't know what the hell that was about" - every movie you see will seem like a William S. Burroughs/David Cronenberg art flick.

Automated doors work for you until you need them to.
Medical equipment will work on you (and around you) unless it's urgent that it does, or if you're trying to activate/actively use it.

If you can give me an example of something you'd be constantly running to me to ask if it works, that might be helpful. I really can't imagine what would make that necessary.

The rule, again, with a little bit of refinement, is: Technology does not work for Fallen. The Storyguide is the final arbiter of any disputes.

In fact, that last sentence kind of appears in many, many sections. Like, in all of them. Which is why I guess it makes sense that if people *do* have questions (whether pertaining to what kind of technology works or whether pertaining to other rules), they should be coming to ask *anyway*.

cenobyte wrote:
Forks, spoons, and knives are fine. But you cannot use vacuums. I'm kidding about vacuums.

Does this mean we can have that fallen angel vaccum party I've always dreamed of?

It really depends on what you're using the vacuum for....

<grin>

One comment about the "nothing with a screen" thing. The book (the one we're using - not my addled memory of ancient ones) specifically makes mention of Gluttonous Fallen using television as one of their possible indulgences. in fact for some Gluttonys, not watching tv for any length of time will make them ill. That being said, I heartily agree with the Jill in that, nothing good can come of this. It is the mindless watching of 24 hour Three's Company marathons, not gaining "useful" info from CNN that fulfills the gluttonous addiction.

In fact I think the same would hold true for drugs. Jill can correct me if I'm wrong, but if we want to say that our characters get stoned out of our gourd with some friends during downtime, that's fine. If we say that we attempt to solve a problem with a human that's immune to Nimbus by slipping them some Ruffies, that's not going to be fine.

This is purely my opinion on the matter but my general rule of thumb on it has been if a scene/conversation/imagined bit of downtime doesn't need an ST, a die to be rolled, or a rulebook to be looked in/rememberred, the piece of technology probably works fine unless the player(s) involved thinks the story would be cooler if it didn't. Also, if the above conditions are met, it essentially doesn't matter if you end up making the "wrong" decision about whether technology works. For all intents and purposes if you want to envision that your character can understand movies no one can stop you (but here's the kicker) until it's important that you can. As soon as the guide or a player in opposition to you is involved then your memory of that movie starts to fizzle.

Which means for Laura's point about always having to run to an ST to find out if something works or not, it's essentially a self correcting problem. If you have to check with a guide to see if something works, it doesn't. The simple act of checking with the guide... means it's important enough to check with the guide... which means it doesn't work.

That's well put, Dave. In particular, the part about finding a Storyguide to see if the thing you're trying to use works. That's something I didn't say clearly before: If it's more dramatic that the technology that (may have been working previously or which) you're trying to use currently not work, then please assume the technology doesn't work. There is no opposing corollary for this one - if it's more dramatic that the technology *does* work, that's usually an indication that it won't, as well.

And yes, I might make an exception for Gluttinous Fallen and the television. Unless the Gluttinous Fallen wanted to be a shopping channel host to spread its message.