Hallow, Domus, and Dying

Jill, I remember you mentioning to me that you have changed the way a Domus draws back a Fallen who has suffered the Hollow Death. I've forgotten and when I thought about it I realised that everyone else might like to know as well. I figured I might as well start a thread in this handy section. :)

In the BRB it states that "the Domus acts as a beacon for them [Fallen] when they return from Purgatory. They will return to the world of Clay somewhere within a few blocks of their Domus. Without one, there is absolutely no telling where a Fallen will arrive."

Jill states: ?

Jill states same thing, with further specification:

If you do not spend Zeal (or Hallow) on your Domus, you will reappear from the Hollow Death Somewhere in the world.

If you have a Meek Domus (you spend 1 Zeal on it, and use Hallow), you will reappear from the Hollow Death somewhere in or near the city your Domus is in (within a day's walk).

If you have a Moderate Domus (you spend 2 Zeal on it and use Hallow), you will reappear from the Hollow Death somewhere in or near the neighbourhood close to your Domus (within a few blocks).

If you have a fully attuned Domus (you spend 3 Zeal on it and use Hallow), you will reappear from the Hollow Death somewhere in or near the Domus itself (within 5 feet).

This is not outlined in the BRB with any specifity, which is now a word because I used it in a sentence (it's different from specificity), although I hope some day it will be made a bit more clear what spending 3 Zeal on a Domus means.

If your Domus is destroyed for whatever reason, you don't get the Zeal back you put in to it. If you release your Domus willingly, you may choose to use the Zeal you put in to it into a new Domus.

You need to let me know where your Domus is. The more specific the better (a street address or some defining characteristic is what I'm looking for. "Somewhere in Cathedral" is okay, but if you really really really wanted to live in THE Cathedral, you might be disappointed when you find out IC that it's been someone else's Domus for 3 years. "The building on the corner of Albert Street and College Drive with the crazy billboard" is very specific, and I know which building you mean).

In the BRB it says that only a Devotion need be spent with Hallow to make a Domus. I don't see that in your list.

I understood that spending extra Zeal would *strengthen* your Domus -- as it does any affection -- and not *create* it.

That could be a missed edit, from back in the days when "Devotion" meant both "Devoted Zeal" and "Devotion"? I'm not sure.

You can call a place yours and have a small-dee-domus if you infuse it with your will (Devotion), but if it's not attuned to you as an Affection (spending Zeal on it), you will end up Somewhere Else if you suffer the Hollow Death. A small-dee-domus will still resonate with your Embodiment, but it gives you no benefits (no Inspirations, no coming back there when you die) unless you spend Zeal on it.

A small-dee-domus is basically just "a place to live so that you don't have to live in a cardboard box in an alley".

And it occurs to me I didn't *actually* answer another part of your question. This is a flavour-text bit that is not explicitly asked, but is implied in the question you've asked.

Each Fallen will be drawn back to her Domus in a deeply personal way. The journey back from Purgatory might be lost to a fugue state, or the attuned/strengthened Domus might actually shine as a beacon in the darkness. The narrative description of your return from Hollow Death is different for each character.

In Hallow it talks of Domus always with a capital letter, and as *a type of affection*, so I don't agree with using the word Domus as "a place to live so that you don't have to live in a cardboard box in an alley". I would also note that nothing says that you have to live in your Domus.

Earlier in Hallow it talks about creating Affections with "Devotion" and not devoted zeal, as well as the limits to the number of affections based on "Devotion" and not devoted zeal. So while it might be a carry-over, it would seem odd that the language matches the new terms.

Edit: Especially as in the old system it would have been "Adversity Zeal", wouldn't it?

To be honest, I don't remember what it would have been in the old system.

Anyway, that's my take on it. You can have a "Domus" by using Devotion or Hallow or whatever (I'm not looking at the Bee Arr Bee at the moment; i'm working from memory, and I'm remembering looking this up in the Hallow section) and that will create an Affection out of a place. This creates a Domus. But if you want it to be attuned to you so that you come back to the right place when you die, you have to spend Zeal.

At least, that's how I've been running it.

cenobyte wrote:But if you want it to be attuned to you so that you come back to the right place when you die, you have to spend Zeal.

At least, that's how I've been running it.

Okay, so imbuing with Zeal gains you an anchor to a place if you go through Purgatory, so that you come back near home, does it also give you the inspirations you would get from investing Zeal in a Domus as per Hallow in the BRB?

cenobyte wrote:You can call a place yours and have a small-dee-domus if you infuse it with your will (Devotion), but if it's not attuned to you as an Affection (spending Zeal on it)...

Except that spending Devotion is how you make Affections according to the BRB. There is a difference between having a Domus and having a place as an Affection. I can understand if you want to say that spending Devotion creates an Affection of a place, i.e., makes it resonate with your embodiment, cannot be imbued with zeal, and becomes (theoretically) protected under the Codex; whereas spending Zeal creates a Domus, i.e., makes it resonate to your embodiment, creates a beacon to call you from Purgatory, allows for investiture of Zeal to gain inspirations, and becomes (theoretically) protected under the Codex.

If that is the case then I can get my head around it. I think that the word Domus has special meaning in the setting and I'm getting hung up on it being used for what are, in my head at least, two different concepts, even with the small-dee.

As you describe it, which I completely missed when we talked, Gabe has never had a Domus in Regina. I think that many other people will find themselves suddenly in a similar state of realization.

Friedrich wrote:spending Devotion creates an Affection of a place, i.e., makes it resonate with your embodiment, cannot be imbued with zeal, and becomes (theoretically) protected under the Codex; whereas spending Zeal creates a Domus, i.e., makes it resonate to your embodiment, creates a beacon to call you from Purgatory, allows for investiture of Zeal to gain inspirations, and becomes (theoretically) protected under the Codex.

I think what you're suggesting here is what I was getting at.

Friedrich wrote:does it also give you the inspirations you would get from investing Zeal in a Domus per Hallow in the BRB?

Yes.

OK, Jill you had previously stated a place cannot be an affection unless it is your Domus (we argued about it, remember?), and a character can have a maximum of 1 Domus. Is that now no longer the case?

Heh. No, I don't remember.

a) A character cannot have more than one Domus. That is pretty clear in the BRB under "Hallow"

b) I guess I'm unclear as to the difference between making a place a Domus by investing Devotion + Hallow (temporary Domus) and making a place a Domus by investing Zeal + Hallow, other than the Inspirations and Hollow Death business.

In my mind, the former case would give you the following benefits: the place would resonate with your Embodiment (but would be a Temporary Affection, and so would be protected under the Codex). Period. In the latter case, the place would resonate with your Embodiment, you would gain Inspirations when in your Domus, and, depending on how much Zeal you dedicate to the Affection, you would return from Purgatory in or near the Domus (this Domus, as a Permanent Affection, would also be protected under the Codex).

I'm just not sure they're mutually exclusive (except for not being able to have more than one Domus). In my mind, a temporary Domus is the same as a temporary Affection. However, if you want a permanent Domus, you would have to invest Zeal in it.

In either case, you're creating an Affection. But it seems to me the question comes down to temporary vs. permanent = Devotion vs. Zeal.

In either case, you're creating an Affection. But, just as you cannot have more than one Chosen Weapon (which is also an Affection), you cannot have more than one Domus.

Am I understanding your question, Dave?

cenobyte wrote:In either case, you're creating an Affection. But it seems to me the question comes down to temporary vs. permanent = Devotion vs. Zeal.

Whoa. Where is this coming from? Nothing in Hallow says that in order to make a permanent affection you have to spend Zeal. It clearly states that "To create an Affection, you must spend Devotion." The difference is that Devotion used to create temporary Affections "returns to the Fallen once the object is created, fixed, or broken". Which I interpret to mean that the Devotion returns immediately rather than being gone for the whole month as it would be if you had made a permanent Affection.

As for making a place an Affection, it's no different than having multiple weapons as Affections. Only one is my Chosen Weapon and gives me bonuses, but I could have other weapons that were affections and didn't give me any bonuses -- other than being able to find them using Hallow and being protected under the Codex.

Edit: I thought that the difference between Devotion and Zeal was that anything bought with Devotion can be taken away via story because you've spent from a renewable stat while that bought with Zeal was permanent because the source expenditure was permanent.

No, it doesn't say you have to spend Zeal to make an Affection permanent.

I'm having difficulty explaining what I'm trying to say. I should have said "permanent", not permanent. In fact, I should have said "fully attuned" and not "permanent". It was late. I was tired. Dave's question threw me for a loop because I didn't (and still don't) understand where it came from. I didn't think we were talking about making more than one Domus; we were talking about the difference between a Domus you spend Zeal on and one you do not spend Zeal on. Same Domus; different 'attunement', if you will.

This is what I want to say:
You can have a Domus without spending any Zeal to "strengthen" it. Your Domus is an Affection and you can only have one Domus. To create a Domus, all you have to do is use Hallow and spend Devotion. This creates a Domus that resonates with your Embodiment, and which is protected under the Codex as one of your Affections. That is *all that Domus does*.

If you spend 1 Zeal to "strengthen" your Domus, **in addition to it being an Affection and therefore being protected by the Codex**, you will get an Inspiration when you are in the Domus. Plus, should you suffer the Hollow Death, you will return near or in the city.

If you spend 2 Zeal to "further strengthen" your Domus, **in addition to it being an Affection and therefore being protected by the Codex, and getting 1 Inspiration per day when you are in the Domus**, you get a second Inspiration per day, and should you suffer the Hollow Death, you will return in or near the neighbourhood ("within several blocks") of the Domus.

If you spend 3 Zeal to "fully attune" your Domus to you, **in addition to it being an Affection and therefore being protected by the Codex, and getting 2 Inspirations per day when you are inside**, you get an additional Inspiration and a Potent Inspiration per day, and should you suffer the Hollow Death, you will return in or near the Domus itself.

To say it less verbosely:
(1 Devotion + Hallow) on a place = Domus*
((Domus) +1 Zeal) on a place = 1 Inspiration/day when inside + come back near the city.
((Domus) +2 Zeal) on a place = 2 Inspirations/day when inside + return near neighbourhood.
((Domus) +3 Zeal) on a place = 3 Inspirations/day when inside + Potent Inspiration + return near Domus itself.

*Where "Domus" is an Affection protected by the Codex, which resonates with your Embodiment

These are four of your five Domus options, where the fifth option is to not have a Domus at all. And "there can be only one". I should mention that you don't have to "re-create" a Domus if you want to strengthen it; you only have to spend Zeal (you don't have to do the (Devotion + Hallow) thing over each time you want to strengthen your Domus). Also, note that neither your Chosen Weapon nor your Domus count toward your limit of (Devotion X ranks in Hallow) for Affections.

More than one person can each contribute (Devotion + Hallow) to **the same Domus**. And more than one person can spend Zeal to strengthen the Domus. It does not give any group benefits; rather, as the Domus is strengthened by an individual Fallen, that Fallen gains the benefits listed above. In the Symphony, a Domus invested in such a manner resonates with the Embodiments of all the Fallen who have invested (Devotion + Hallow).

cenobyte wrote:You can have a Domus without spending any Zeal to "strengthen" it. Your Domus is an Affection and you can only have one Domus. To create a Domus, all you have to do is use Hallow and spend Devotion. This creates a Domus that resonates with your Embodiment, and which is protected under the Codex as one of your Affections. That is *all that Domus does*.
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*Where "Domus" is an Affection protected by the Codex, which resonates with your Embodiment
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And "there can be only one".

Except that this doesn't meet with the benefits of a "Domus" as described by the book and as you yourself point out is not one; so then there can be more than one. Which is where Dave's question came from. As you point out, this Devotion-infused-place is an Affection. You can have multiple Affections -- dependant on your (Hallow x Devotion) maximum -- and so you can then have multiple locations as Affections but only one invested with Zeal as a Domus.

Example: Bob the Wrath decides that he wants to have his Domus as an apartment over a biker bar. He Desecrates it to make it a Domus (Devotion + Hallow + 3 Zeal). After two months of living there, Billy the Justice decides to clean out the bar and launches an attack on it. The bar is damaged and Bob gets pissed that his favourite place has been trashed by another Fallen -- but there is nothing he can do about what's been done, (othen than find Bob's human allies and beat them silly). Bob does decide to make sure that Billy can't trash his bar again though and so Bob Desecrates the bar to make it an Affection (Devotion + Hallow) so that no Fallen can touch it without violating the Codex. Any Fallen passerby with True Voice of significant rank will notice that the building resonates twice with Wrath: once on the ground floor and once on the third floor. Later that month Bob goes to Purgatory, having underestimated Billy's human allies, and reappears in his apartment -- his Domus. There was no chance of him appearing in the bar because his bar is not a Domus, but merely an Affection.

No, you can't have more than one Domus.

The only modification I've made to what the BRB says is in the description of what happens when you infuse a Domus with Zeal, per coming back from Hollow Death. In the BRB, it says that "A Domus is created when a Fallen uses Hallow on a location", and it's pretty clear that Fallen cannot have more than one Domus.

My question with your example is why Bob would create the Affection twice. When you use Hallow on a location to create a Domus, you create an Affection. A Domus is an Affection. If Bob's bar is damaged by Billy the Justice, Bob can take the matter to his Court and say that Billy busted up Bob's Affection. Bob would not be allowed to create an Affection of the first floor of his bar and a Domus of the third floor of his bar, because when you create an Affection of a location, it becomes a Domus.

Sanctifying and Desecrating objects and locations only creates an Affection when you *also* use Devotion.

Maybe this is where the confusion is coming in.

When you use Devotion and Hallow on a Location to create an Affection, that Affection is a Domus. You can only have one Domus, and therefore you can only have one location as an Affection.

I also realise I've made an error in what I've explained here. Rather than editing the original posts, I'll mention it here: If you spend Devotion + Hallow on a place to create an Affection of it (which effectively makes that location your Domus), but do not spend Zeal, the place still does act as a weak beacon, and you will reappear from Hollow Death about a month's journey away from your Domus.

BRB, p.166 wrote:The Domus, or home, is a critical part of a Fallen’s life, and a Fallen may only have one Domus at a time. A Domus is created when a Fallen uses Hallow on a location. Creating a new Domus replaces the old one; it takes about ten minutes per room or area, although the character does not have to travel to every room in the building. In fact, they merely have to begin living there and desire the process to begin. It only takes one Devotion to create a Domus. Many Fallen can create a mutual Domus by each contributing their Devotion to its creation. Once finished, should the Fallen die the Hollow death, the Domus acts as a beacon for them when they return from Purgatory.

So while you don't *have* to live in your Domus, that's like having a house and choosing not to live in it. Domus is kind of synonymous with "home".

Where my interpretation differs from the BRB is in the line that follows that:

BRB p.166 wrote:They will return to the world of Clay somewhere within a few blocks of their Domus. Without one, there is absolutely no telling where a Fallen will arrive.

Where Providence differs is that the stronger the bond is you have with your Domus, the closer you will return to it following the Hollow Death.

I should also say that this interpretation of Domus and Affections might differ from the way it's been interpreted in other games. If that's the case, I apologise for the confusion. I don't *think* the way that I've interpreted these things harms the setting or seriously mucks up the game.

If it makes a difference, here is my reasoning behind this:
I think players may have, in the beginning of the game, underestimated how serious Hollow Death really is. I think there may have been an underestimation of how powerful it is to be connected to a physical location in the World of Clay that acts as your beacon, drawing you 'home' to safety. I think something as important as a Domus should give you real benefits, and those real benefits, other than the Inspirations you get (which may never be used unless there's a scene run in your house, or unless you decide to create a Domus of the meeting place), are how brightly that beacon shines for you. I guess the reason I went with doing it this way is to really drive home how important a Domus is. How serious Hollow Death is. A Domus, IMO, *should* be really important. Important enough that you should want to spend a point or two on it to always be close to it.

cenobyte wrote:No, you can't have more than one Domus.

I never said that you could.

cenobyte wrote:The only modification I've made to what the BRB says is in the description of what happens when you infuse a Domus with Zeal, per coming back from Hollow Death. In the BRB, it says that "A Domus is created when a Fallen uses Hallow on a location", and it's pretty clear that Fallen cannot have more than one Domus.

It also says that "There are two further special types of Affections: Domus and Chosen Weapon." Further it says that one can "create an Affection of a person, place, or object" and that "objects and places cannot normally resist the process". Nowhere does it say that that you can only have one object, or oneperson as an Affection. Saying that all Place Affections are Domi is like saying that all Object Affections are Chosen Weapons; after all, any object can be used to do harm to other. The thing about a Chosen Weapon and a Domus is that they also offer a super-supernatural component; Chosen Weapons are summonable, unlike every other Affection, and a Domus summons you, unlike every other location.

cenobyte wrote:My question with your example is why Bob would create the Affection twice. When you use Hallow on a location to create a Domus, you create an Affection. A Domus is an Affection. If Bob's bar is damaged by Billy the Justice, Bob can take the matter to his Court and say that Billy busted up Bob's Affection. Bob would not be allowed to create an Affection of the first floor of his bar and a Domus of the third floor of his bar, because when you create an Affection of a location, it becomes a Domus.

Oh, I know that the appartment was an Affection. There is nothing that says that you have to make the entire building an affection. It depends on a character's ideas of where the boundary is, near as I can tell. If you live in an apartment building, do you feel that the entire building is yours, or do you feel that one suite of rooms is yours?

cenobyte wrote:Sanctifying and Desecrating objects and locations only creates an Affection when you *also* use Devotion.

Maybe this is where the confusion is coming in.

When you use Devotion and Hallow on a Location to create an Affection, that Affection is a Domus. You can only have one Domus, and therefore you can only have one location as an Affection.

As per above, I don't understand where it states that making a location an Affection makes it a Domus because a Domus is a special kind of Location Affection.

cenobyte wrote:I also realise I've made an error in what I've explained here. Rather than editing the original posts, I'll mention it here: If you spend Devotion + Hallow on a place to create an Affection of it (which effectively makes that location your Domus), but do not spend Zeal, the place still does act as a weak beacon, and you will reappear from Hollow Death about a month's journey away from your Domus.

See, now with that explanation then is still does become a Domus. However, I still don't see why Location Affection = Domus unless you declare one of the Location Affections to be such.

cenobyte wrote:So while you don't *have* to live in your Domus, that's like having a house and choosing not to live in it. Domus is kind of synonymous with
"home".

Unless of course your character sees his/her Domus as a Last Refuge and goes there when the Communal Living Complex becomes too much for them to handle even though they know that it is better for the cohesion of the community to live as a group.

And I don't understand how a location Affection is DIFFERENT from a Domus.

I don't equate geographic location with an object. When you create an Affection of a place, you're doing more than just making the physical object of a house resonate with your mojo. You're creating a very real anchor in the Symphony that is locked to a very specific geographic location. And yes, while the *object* of the house could burn down, that would destroy the physical representation of the location (the outward, if you will, and visible sign), but wouldn't necessarily destroy the actual anchor (the inward and invisible Weird Force).

Just like you cannot break a Chosen Weapon, you cannot 'un-anchor' a Domus (Location Affection) simply by burning it down.

cenobyte wrote:And I don't understand how a location Affection is DIFFERENT from a Domus.

I don't equate geographic location with an object. When you create an Affection of a place, you're doing more than just making the physical object of a house resonate with your mojo. You're creating a very real anchor in the Symphony that is locked to a very specific geographic location. And yes, while the *object* of the house could burn down, that would destroy the physical representation of the location (the outward, if you will, and visible sign), but wouldn't necessarily destroy the actual anchor (the inward and invisible Weird Force).

Just like you cannot break a Chosen Weapon, you cannot 'un-anchor' a Domus (Location Affection) simply by burning it down.

That's where I disagree. When you make any Affection you make it resonate with your mojo. When you go the Extra Step you can make a Chosen Weapon or Domus. The anchor is attached to the idea of Domus, not the idea of Location.

And I realise two arguments are going to come out of this.

1) "So, I can make this four foot patch of space in my back yard my Domus and get Inspirations when I'm in it?"

and

2) "So that means I CAN have a Domus (physical location) and a separate Affection (that house over there, which is a thing that can be moved)"

In the first case, sure. Go ahead. Make a patch of grass your Domus.

In the second case, technically, yes, although I don't like it, and I think it totally violates the spirit of what I'm trying to do and say.

That's where I disagree. When you make any Affection you make it
resonate with your mojo. When you go the Extra Step you can make a
Chosen Weapon or Domus. The anchor is attached to the idea of Domus,
not the idea of Location.

What is the Extra Step?
Using Zeal?
That's not what I got out of the book at all.

cenobyte wrote:2) "So that means I CAN have a Domus (physical location) and a separate Affection (that house over there, which is a thing that can be moved)"
...
In the second case, technically, yes, although I don't like it, and I think it totally violates the spirit of what I'm trying to do and say.

How does it violate the spirit of what you are trying to do and say? I honestly don't understand. I have no problems with your House Rule for Domus and I can see why you implemented it. There is still only one Domus and the amount of Zeal you imbue into it determines how connected you are to it and how much it draws you back from Purgatory. How does having a second location as an Affection detract from the need for a solid and invested Domus? Or am I missing the point completely?

cenobyte wrote:What is the Extra Step?
Using Zeal?
That's not what I got out of the book at all.

No, because in the book you don't have to spend Zeal to make either. The extra step is a more-than-normal attachment to the weapon and place. It is a weapon that you are so in tune with that you can summon it and the place is where you feel so relaxed and at home that it is the one place where you instinctively want to go when the horrors of Purgatory release you.

cenobyte wrote:And yes, while the *object* of the house could burn down, that would destroy the physical representation of the location (the outward, if you will, and visible sign), but wouldn't necessarily destroy the actual anchor (the inward and invisible Weird Force).

Just like you cannot break a Chosen Weapon, you cannot 'un-anchor' a Domus (Location Affection) simply by burning it down.

Then how can a Domus ever be destroyed? In the book it says that the only thing that will break a bond is time or desire -- when talking about humans. If we carry that over to objects and places then touching and desiring the connection to end will end it, as will not reinforcing it over time by visiting the place. So then, once you make a Domus no one can ever break that link and you'll never need to remake a Domus again?