Suggestion: Resources on Aids

I have some ideas for minor tweaks to the KC rules, that I'd like to hear whether other people agree or disagree and then if lots of people like any of the ideas, perhaps it can get passed on to Trent for consideration. I'm going to post each of them in a different topic so that discussions don't get confused.

Suggestion: Resources can be used on Aids for the appropriate actions.

Goal: Encourages co-operation and is more realistic.

I know that Trent intentionally gimped Aids, by making it so that 5 Marks on an Aid action only produces 2 Marks for the Aidee, and so on. The intent was that people don't cooperate perfectly. However, I'm not sure that this needs to extend to making it impossible to share resources.

If Carl has a spy (who produces 3 Marks on any Investigate action he does) then it doesn't make sense to me from an in-character perspective that his spy is completely unwilling to help anybody else. Why not allow Carl, who wants to Aid Jasmine's Investigate action, to lend his spy to her? If we followed the usual Aiding rules, she would only get 1 Mark for it. But if the characters really want to work together, they might find out a little bit more than they would otherwise, which makes sense to me.

This is something that has been allowed in past games. It requires a Transgression.

As for why resources might be unwilling to help, I can think of many reasons. I suppose it depends on how you wrote them into your character.

I'd like to ask that when we're talking about the rules, we all show respect to Trent for the work he's done on the system. Folks might not like the system, or they may not like the way certain rules work, but that doesn't mean the rules are broken.

I have to admit, I get a little defensive when I see things like : 'Trent intentionally gimped Aids', because a) I don't think he did, b) I don't think it's broken, and c)we really don't know for sure what Trent's intention was or is. So, I guess I'm just asking that folks use respectful language.

Thanks!

Also, there is a mechanic in the system that lets you lend out your resources.

I'm sorry... I didn't mean any disrespect. He says it right in the book: "Aid is purposely not an efficient use of time". He also explains his intent, I'm not trying to guess at it. He intentionally made it so that you lose a lot of your effort. I don't mind, either, it totally makes sense. So a) he did, b) I don't either, and c) yes we do.

That said, "gimped" was probably a really bad word choice. I'm really sorry for any misunderstanding of my intent here, I only meant that it's intentionally weaker than working on your own.

cenobyte wrote:Also, there is a mechanic in the system that lets you lend out your resources.

Also, where is this?

PS. I want to clarify, I am not proposing that we actually change any of the rules we're using, I am suggesting that if I'm not the only one who feels this way, we might suggest it to Trent as a result of our playtesting.

Corral wrote:PS. I want to clarify, I am not proposing that we actually change any of the rules we're using, I am suggesting that if I'm not the only one who feels this way, we might suggest it to Trent as a result of our playtesting.

I believe the more correct game design term is nerfed. And, indeed, Trent has indeed purposefully, intentionally, and for reasons of his design goals nerfed aid.

I think part of the reason it is hard to see Trent's reasons for some of how he has downtime working is because the Providence crew doesn't seem to really work the Secular Actions systems as hard as I've seen other groups do it. I think much of Trent's expectations have come from dealing with groups who are really good at it - I know I've played characters who have no problems dishing out 20 successes worth of actions during a month, and those characters weren't even the kings of Secular power in their respective games.

Part of the reason Aid was designed this way was to prevent one guy achieving an Epic success because his 15 closest friends all donated one Effort to his cause. I understand that. The point was that if you want to help out your buddies, do a group action.

Okay...?

I'm really not arguing that Aid shouldn't be designed that way. I like the Aid transformation. It just seems... "off" to me that if you are going to be Aiding somebody, you don't get any benefit from your resources. Why can't they help, too? Why not include the thugs/spies/etc, and then do the transformation?

Laura, what are you talking about? You get all the benefits of resources when you Aid someone. YOU get it towards your Aid action. Your resources still give you re-rolls/reduced risk as applicable for you to try to accumulate your Aid marks.

... you do?

(looking at the book now) Hm, maybe I got confused because spies aren't listed there, and no professions are listed there...?

Also, they don't give you bonus marks like they normally do, which isn't all the benefits. At least, if you do, it's not clear to me, cause that's exactly what I was talking about.

There is no action to which all resources are applicable. You must choose resources appropriate to the action -- although if the Storyteller is feeling generous and your write-up is good enough, you might be able to use non-traditional resources to gain a re-roll. I say a re-roll because resources only give marks for certain actions and default to a re-roll.

If you are talking about spies in particular, which are not normally permissible for an Aid action, then please don't generalise to resources.

As Jill, pointed out already, if you want the full benefits of your Spies in helping with an investigation then make it a Group investigation.


As for professions, it only says that those examples in the book don't lend themselves to Aid actions. With storyteller approval you can come up with more professions. A non-example profession might well get re-rolls on Aid actions, e.g., Busy-body/Gossip (a genius at sticking your nose into others' actions and proffering aid) might be applicable toward Aid and Investigate actions.

I believe, to sum up, the proposed change is to change the "Professions and Resources Applicable" section of Aid to "As appropriate for the Aided action." That's actually not a bad change, honestly. An investigaty type perhaps should be better able to Aid your investigation, and a Bully should be of more assistance when they're helping you to intimidate someone.

Wade has summed me up perfectly, so I'll leave it at that. Whether or not Jill wants to actually pass this suggestion on to Trent is, of course, entirely up to her.