Techniques - note

Jill, as far as there being a reason - if we don't know it, we can't decide if our characters agree with it, can we? This is another point where you're asking us to play in the dark.

Personally, I think having recognized abilities associated with Embodiments, and not having some sort of commonly-accepted name for them (especially since the True Voice is a perfect translator, as I understand the game material to date) is retarded. If that's the way it's set, then I'll live with it IN YOUR GAME.

I want to be clear on this. I'm NOT interested in playing this game "The Right Way" or "Trent's Way". AFAIC, Jill's opinion is the only one I respect as having any validity on the canon of this game. If she wants to take dictation from Trent, that's fine. But Trent isn't running this game, and if he doesn't like what some other Storyguide does with the game once he's published it, too freakin' bad.

Fair enough, Mike, and thank you for saying so.

I'll be as clear as I can:

I think using "capital-letter" names for your Techniques is lame. I'd really prefer you didn't do it in Providence. I also hated it in Vampire when people named their Disciplines ("after I rob the bank, I'll use Celerity to get Fair Escape"). While there is support for my preference in the main rulebook, and that makes me happy, I would much prefer, and strongly encourage, players in Providence to come up with more creative ways of talking about what they can do.

As a corollary, using canoeing terms apparently helps a great deal.

("after I rob the bank, I'll use Celerity to get Fair Escape")

In a LARP or even a work of fiction, would you have a problem with someone saying. "after I rob the bank, I'll use my Porsche to make my getaway"?

If you do, then this really comes down to literary style differences. I have always thought one of the things that is interesting about LARP as an artform is that it uses the literary styles of multiple voices, not just the game designer's or storyguide's. Although some characters obviously would speak the above sentiment using far more expressive and interesting language, not all characters do talk "creatively". My problem with the original sentiment behind "all characters don't talk like that", is that it essentially limits the variety of character speech. I get that you and possibly Trent both think that a character sounds lame when they talk a certain way, what I don't get is why create a rule that forbids characters from sounding lame.

As for the "in-character reason" part of things, it also comes down to an "or what?" situation. If there is a good and interesting IC reason for characters not to use the word "Nimbus", knowing why would help us understand how to react when some character walk into the census and says "Thank God for my Nimbus; Without it I would have been screwed". As cheesy as it sounds, while typing, I was just reminded of Harry Potter and the interesting tension that was created in the later books between some characters still saying, "he who must not be named", and those who actually said, "Voldemort".

I guess I've always preferred "yes but there's consequences", to "no". I was always very impressed with KC's treatment of guns and travel. Trent didn't want them to be the focus of the game like they so often were in Vampire, so he came up with interesting reasons for them not to be, that way characters can still try if they want to and then face the consequences.

What frustrates me the most in this, is how arbitrary it all seems. If these words are not actually "in-character words", there would be other words that are, and those words should be the ones that are in the rulebook so we can use them. If the words are known and there is a good IC reason not to use them, rather than saying the words can't be said, let them be spoken and have consequences. If the words are known and there is no IC reason other than "sounding lame" not to say them, I'd rather let players choose how their characters talk and have someone IC actually say, "why are you talking like that? You sound like an idiot".

Agree with me and I'll tell you about my portaging tump strap.

Okay, I'm agreeing with you just to hear about your portaging tump strap. :blush:

AND, I'm also agreeing with you in that it may seem completely arbitrary.

Saying "After I rob the bank, I'm going to use my Porsche to get away" is WAY different from saying "After I rob the bank, I'm going to use my Celerity to get away". Why? Because everyone in the world knows that a Porsche goes really fast. And many people in the English-speaking world know that the word 'celerity' is a noun that means 'a rate that is rapid'. HOWEVER, it would be a better analogy to say it's like saying "After I rob the bank, I use my superior running ability, which I have access to because I'm a CREATURE OF THE NIGHT...BWA-ha-HA!!!!". It's an in-your-face reminder that you're playing a game that has special names for everything.

I don't think it's a "given" that over time, Fallen would have spontaneously come up with the same words for their miraculous powers. In fact, I think that's a ridiculous statement. That's like saying that over time, everyone would come up with the same concept of what the colour green is. (And I don't think that everyone sees or interprets colour the same way, which is where that came from.)

Because Techniques are not absolutes. They are dynamic, not static. They are abstract, not concrete. They are mutable.

That's, I guess, why I think that.

Techniques are still evolving. That's why you get to take Transgressions to modify how they look, or why you get to (mechanically) take Antithetical Techniques to modify the type of trauma you take.

And I would *DEARLY* love it if there would be IC consequences for people using the OOC terms for Techniques. However, since many of the players in Providence haven't had a chance to read the book, and since some of them have only ever played one, or maybe two games before, I thought I'd mention that this is one of the things that, even if it weren't in the book, I'd be asking players to do. Sure, some characters *wouldn't* use 'creative' (which is not synonymous with 'poetic' or 'full of adjectives') language. Some characters might just say, "I have a power that does that." AND THAT'S FINE.

But if you say "I have Shepherd, so I can remove your Trauma", you're being lazy, IMO (and yes, I'm being blunt now, because this is entirely my opinion). Why not just say "I can remove your Trauma"? Or even, "I am a shepherd"? It's lazy and, as I said before, lame, to use capital-letter names for your Techniques IC. I find it disruptive to game play, and I find it jars me IC and OOC. It removes me from the flow of the scene.

In fact, your example about Harry Potter and Voldemort is a good one. The reason Voldemort (she says, glancing nervously over her shoulder) is "he who shall not be named", much like a guy I know called "He Who Shall Not Be Named", is because his name has power, and if you say it, it calls to him and, like any good and frightening horror story/thriller, he might come to you. (Same reason the guy I know has a name we shall not say. God forbid he should come back to this province. Ugh.) So if we were all playing Harry Potter (I get to be Hagrid!), none of us would use His name (except that rapscallion Harry) because IC, we'd all know that if we did, Bad Things Would Happen. In KC, I see no difference. I don't believe that over the last couple of hundred years, all the Fallen in the world would come to a consensus over what to call their miraculous powers, and since there aren't really any Remnants around to tell them what so-and-so called the light that shines out of your eyes and confuses humans, someone might call it Nimbus; someone else might call it a Halo, someone else might call it Scary Blue Light. The IC reason not to do it in KC, at least in *my* game, is that Fallen don't often find it necessary to call their powers by any specific name, and even if they do, there's no consensus as to what to call them.

So sure, I'm not saying 'don't do it'. In fact, go ahead and do it. And the consequences will be that you do not get a Roleplaying Zeal. Because I don't consider it good roleplaying to constantly refer to your miraculous abilities by random OOC titles.

(Although it may not sound like it, I'm not angry or upset about this. I'm just being blunt.)

In relation to the example above about Trauma and Shepherd, a person can't quantify trauma in game can they? So, since there is a very real correlation between mental breakdowns and why Fallen seem to suffer more from the actions with relation to morality than do humans and still suffer regular and supernatural stresses, how would we refer to these things in game?

I, for the most part, assume that any person's active symptom is simply them 'acting out' and ignoring some other problem, to which rhetoric is the obvious solution.

I find it disruptive to game play, and I find it jars me IC and OOC

I unfortunately feel the exact same way about artificially avoiding labels. This premise that Fallen haven't named their abilities really stretches my suspension of disbelief. At some point in the history of Fallen there would have to have been at least some Grigori who were bankers or doctors or lawyers or military officers. Not all of them could have been right brain thinkers.

Or maybe they all are. Maybe part of what makes Grigori what they are is that they don't reckon if they were left brain thinkers in life. If that is the case, then it should be made clear so people don't build characters who behave or speak in a way that is innapropriate. If it's "bad roleplaying" to play a character who talks like a scientist or a lawyer, tell us just not to play those types of characters. I know I'm the one being a bit blunt now, but it's easier to just tell a player what type of character to play, than not doing so and then telling them how their character should or shouldn't talk.

I know if I was a Fallen I would ask fellow Fallen "what is it called when I look into the past or when I call upon my powers to make someone feel guilty?" If there was no name for it, I would probably try to find out why not. If there was no reason, I would talk to others and I would come up with a name for things. Even if different groups came up with different names, for convenience sake, eventually there would be a consensus. It would also make sense that some characters wouldn't use or even know these terms.

While playing Rada, I don't think I ever once used the words Ravage, Smite in character. When talking about True Voice I think I usually spoke of what I heard when listening to the Symphony. That being said my next character will talk very differently from Rada. I'm now in a situation where I have to decide, do I use ooc motivation (no xp) to alter ic behavior or do I speak the way the character would normally speak?

Good point.

Yes, there is no...er...no, you are correct...um...

*ahem*

There is no quantifiable way to assess how much Trauma you have. Until you take your Mortal Trauma, at which point, it becomes obvious that you are broken.

I suspect you could refer to this kind of thing in game as something 'weighing heavily on your soul', or being 'heavy-laden', or heavy-hearted, or troubled, or depressed, or sad, or unable to cope with X...the same ways in which you would refer to Issues OOC, really, if you were talking to someone about it.

Dave wrote:I'm now in a situation where I have to decide, do I use ooc motivation (no xp) to alter ic behavior or do I speak the way the character would normally speak?

I think, given that we don't know the IC reason for not being s'posed to say these things (and yes, your arguments have swayed me considerably, though I'm not the one that matters) that perhaps you should assume for now that it's a good one, and your character wouldn't speak that way. If it turns out later this was a bad assumption, well, it's one we all made, and one that simply puts this game in a different plane than one that, say, you had run.

Perhaps it would help if you pretended that Techniques aren't almost always the three same things depending on the person. Pretend they can be *anything*. (You'll certainly make Jill a happier person if you do).

Wow.

I just attempted to post something huge, incredibly witty, and something that would essentially solve all of our gaming difficulties with but the swoop of a hand.

And then it went 'ploof'.

The short version was: Laura's right.

Again, I encourage you to refer to your miraculous powers in different ways.

Keth wrote:And hallow as infusing something with celestial energy (im pretty sure I am farther off with this one, but still.).

I almost always referred to Hallow as consecrating or desecrating things. Sometimes I forget the word I want and use sanctify in place of consecrate.

One of my previous characters needed to de-identificate some bodies, i.e., use Hallow to break down their recognisable features, and in that case I might have used the term mangled... or was it disglooped...?

I live on the edge.

Malicia wrote:

Dave wrote:I'm now in a situation where I have to decide, do I use ooc motivation (no xp) to alter ic behavior or do I speak the way the character would normally speak?

I think, given that we don't know the IC reason for not being s'posed to say these things (and yes, your arguments have swayed me considerably, though I'm not the one that matters) that perhaps you should assume for now that it's a good one, and your character wouldn't speak that way.

Perhaps it would help if you pretended that Techniques aren't almost always the three same things depending on the person. Pretend they can be *anything*. (You'll certainly make Jill a happier person if you do).

My problem with this line of thought is that you're essentially saying that we should pretend we agree with Jill. If I have to AGREE with the Storyguide in order to play the game, then I will quit the game.

If you have a problem with Techniques not having names, then adopt consistent names that your character uses. Some of these names might be consistent with Technique names, some might not. If this kind of consistency is inappropriate according to Jill, you won't get Zeal for roleplaying. Personally, I'd rather take Zeal penalties than have to spend my energy coming up with unique turns of phrase for a consistent in-game phenomenon.

I've come up with a solution. We just have to come up with new in character names for things. So from now on, the names in the books are ancient forbidden names that no Fallen no matter how rebellious would dare to utter. Instead the Grigori have come up with new names for these celestial gifts. From now on in character let's assume the following list is what Fallen use to describe techniques in character:


Hallow will now be called Spiffiffy

True Voice will now be called Pretty songtime

Nimbus will now be called the Glowtastic three thousand

Sacrifice will now be called You a succa

Bless will now be called Shazaam

Shepherd will now be called Goatfucker

Brimstone will now be called Trogdor

Accordance will now be called Do what I say biznich

Sovereign will now be called I’m so pretty

Valor will now be called Bravery

Renitence will now be called Being not pliant

Endure will now be called Overcomingifying

Recure will now be called Steve

Absolution will now be called The power of Christ compels you

Sanctuary will now be called Majesty 2.0

Scourge will now be called Flail

Auger will now be called sSightly larger than a gimlet

Judgment will now be called Robocop

Bliss will now be called E

Foretelling will now be called Crystal Balls of steel

Confession will now be called Alter boy

Harmony will now be called Melody

Inquisition will now be called That which nobody expects

Impartation will now be called Transmitification

Appropriation will now be called Gimme gimme gimme

Harrowing will now be called Mind rape

Covetous will now be called Isn’t that pretty

Slay will now be called Kill

Inner Silence will now be called This power doesn’t exist and is not called anything

Pact will now be called Contract

Voracity will now be called Burp

Indulge will now be called Burp2

Dispensation will now be called Burp3

Perversion will now be called Spank me

Pillow Talk will now be called Cushion whispers

Enslave will now be called FWB

Vainglory will now be called I’m da man

Approbation will now be called You da man

Infestation will now be called My old appartment

Slumber will now be called Dream pillows

Corruption will now be called Last tuesday

Smite will now be called Smote

Detestation will now be called Tree removal – oh no wait that’s deforestation

Ravage will now be called Celerity



If we all use these new words in character and stick to the book words out of character all our problems will be solved.

Spiffiffy.
That makes me smile.

What I *want* to say, and what I *should* say are at loggerheads (I always want to write 'lagerheads'...me and my love affair with beer) again. So I won't say anything.

Of course, Dave's suggestion wouldn't change anything. You still shouldn't be referring to your Techniques by the same names. So if *Dave* wants to call his Techniques Tuesday, Burp2, and Phoebe, he can. But no one else should know what he's talking about.

Marius wrote:My problem with this line of thought is that you're essentially saying that we should pretend we agree with Jill.

Not precisely. I'm saying we could assume that given the extra information Jill is withholding from us, we would then agree with Jill.

I mean, Trent has come up with an in-character reason for this to be the case. We do not know it, and therefore it is impossible for us to know whether we agree with this reason, or to argue with this reason if we do not. We could all simply imagine a reason good enough to convince us, and then assume for now that that is the case...

I'm not really sure why it's such a big deal. There are plenty of things that humans haven't succeeded in categorizing or standardizing where they ought to have done so long since. If there's some magic aura or ancient traditions that keep us from desiring to name these things, or if they aren't supposed to be so consistent (but for game design reasons they are) then it seems perfectly reasonable to me that we very well might not have named them.

Or, even assuming that the IC reason isn't that great, that there are plenty of names and nobody ever agreed on one. Why bother? You all know what I mean when I say that Ambrose (whom you all know immediately upon looking at him & caring to know that he is an Envy) can enter the Firmament, or that Cheriour can judge things or that a prudence can make people happy. Would it really be worth the effort to come up with specific names within each Civitas, memorize them, and educate newcomers?

But now I'm getting into the same old argument. Yes, Dave, I can see some impetus to naming them, but it's not that much of a stretch to me that we might not have, and it's been decreed in the setting that we haven't, so I can accept it. We could all storm into the Census next week and say that we want names and then vote on some, but that would be completely out of character for us, given that we've lived with the lack of them for centuries. Unless your character has always been bothered by this, and brings it up all the time, I doubt they are going to start caring now.

Some of the Techniques, like Judgement very easily lend themselves to naming. This is especially true if you use names derived from it like "You have been Judged and found wanting"... which makes sense for what happens. Hopefully there is no penalty for using derived name such as that to describe what you have done.

Yes, but Steve, the difference in what you've said and saying "I am going to use Judgement" on you is HUGE.

As I've mentioned on this thread before, saying something like "you've been judged, and your sins revealed. Your own judgement is faulty" is FINE. Because it's not saying "I have used Judgement on you", which is lame.

And, again, I encourage everyone to re-read what Laura's posted because she's brilliant and completely right.

Thanks to the internet and the world we live in, I am fortunate to have friends all over the place. I have friends in Great Britain, I have friends in Australia, I have friends in Nebraska, I have friends in Kentucky. I have friends and family throughout Canada. I speak regularly to all of these people.

In England, they use funny words like lorry instead of truck, flat instead of apartment, they call supper tea, and public schools private. In Australia, they use all sorts of funny vernacular. Did you know that if you go to the states and ask for Kraft Dinner, they'll look at you funny? That in the eastern provinces and in BC, Dinner is never at noon? Do you know the difference between a kangaroo jacket, a bunnyhug and a hoodie? Did you know that Canada is one of the few places in the world that even uses the word Supper for the last meal of the day?

This is in our world, where we can talk to people from all over the world as easily as typing text into an IM, or picking up the phone and calling, or hell, where if you have the money, you can easily *go* to England, or Australia, or Kentucky. People from different places use different words, even if our language is relatively standardized.

Fallen can't use the phone, they can't email, they have a hard time traveling. It makes perfect sense that while you might call True Voice just that, Joe from Toronto calls it listening to the symphony, and Mike from Canmore calls it George.

I don't think that Trent is saying that there is some magical, supernatural reason that fallen never call a technique the same thing. What I think that he *is* trying to do is make people use their imaginations, and make it clear that the Fallen of the world are not a united force. They don't all live in the same place, they don't all have meetings on what to call their powers. They don't have a standardized language. Things like the Codex are incredibly rare in a world where travel and communication are extremely difficult.

I acknowledge that Laura has a point. But Laura's point doesn't address my fundamental problem with it. I want to have consistent names for Techniques. I will find consistent names that Marius is comfortable with, and I will use them. I will probably also streamline conversations by encouraging people to use the terms I do. This is a compromise, and it's as far as I'm willing to go. If it's a problem, say so.

The smaller and more narrowly focused a community is, the more likely they are to have a common jargon. The Fallen are an extremely small and narrowly focused community. I find a group of this size existing for thousands of years and not finding common terms for common phenomenon less likely than beings who shoot fire out there eyes.

That being said, if a character had a transgression that let their Brimstone come from their eyes instead of their hands, I would think it was kind of lame but I would roll my eyes once or twice and try to move on. So with that in mind, I think this idea that Fallen never named their powers is a lame part of the game; I've rolled my eyes at it and will now try to accept that as cool as the game is, occasional lameness will slip in.

Mike: It's a problem. I've said so. I'm sorry if I was unclear on this point.

Eliel wrote:
Appropriation will now be called Gimme gimme gimme

Harrowing will now be called Mind rape

Covetous will now be called Isn’t that pretty

^_^ Thank you so much Dave these made my day. ^_^

This will be the final post in this thread. If you would like to discuss it further, please email me directly.

I want to make sure you understand exactly what my intent was with this post, and what the results of this discussion are.

My intent with this post was not to tell you how to play your character. I apologise if that was how it came across. My intent was not to 'preach' or proselytise or anything like that. I deeply, sincerely apologise if that is how I've come across.

My intent *was* to post what I have always thought about RPGs, and to 'back that up' with what I thought was an interesting thing I'd heard from some other players in KC, and what I found was actually stated in the main rulebook:

"With the exception of the word "Techniques", all names used are out-of-game terms. Fallen have not spent time giving needless names to their innate abilities. Fallen can, however, recognise the effects of many TEchniques. Almost all Fallen who have been around for a while can learn that Faithful Fallen, for example, can conjure fire, can bind a person to their word, and can make the immoral feel the weight of morality. These are simply the traits of the Faithful, as incredible strength and a capacity for violence and anger are the traits of the Wrathful. The names and ranks in this book are given for ease of reference, not so *characters* can discuss them."

I'm sorry if I've offended you with my opinion on what "good roleplaying" is. The fact remains that as Storyguide, I assign at least one Zeal for 'good roleplaying'. If I don't feel you're roleplaying well, I won't assign it. I thought it would be helpful, and did not intend to be arrogant, to make a post about one thing that *I* consider to be an aspect of good roleplaying.

So. The results of this discussion:

*I* would prefer it if you do not use the OOC Technique names listed in the book to describe your innate abilities as Celestial critters. If you wish to come up with some kind of title or jargon for what you can do ("Spiffify"...which is *not* pronounced 'spiff-if-ie', I discovered today...it's 'spiff-if-eye'...would be *just fine*), that's okay, as long as you are prepared to explain, IC, what you mean (again, without using the OOC terms). I think that presents some really interesting RP opportunities.

If you would prefer to use the OOC Technique names listed in the book to describe your innate abilites as Celestial critters, your Storyguide may decide not to award you Zeal for Roleplaying.