Splitting the Room

Okay, point number...erm...three is a *really* good one.

And I can't say whether we've had a lot of traitors listening where they oughtn't, because it might give to much away.

Also too (this is Mark's FAVOURITE expression), make sure you read up (all you folks what have played KC before) on the SOVEREIGNTY rules near the end of the Downtime System/Predominance stuff. Kings *automatically* know if someone's tried to use a Technique on them, whether the attempt is successful or not. Among other things. 'Course, that's just kings...

Also too 2: Cock blocking is ALWAYS bad. It's not cock blocking if you're saving someone's dignity. That's called making an arse of yourself in front of some floozy who was trying to get into your friend's pants at a games convention.

Love wrote:Haha. Well I just have a couple of concerns to bring up against a couple of points brought up. I know that I will be soon finding difficulty if I am corralled by tazer every time I am having a private conversation with say, my White King and possibly the rest of the Court, as I have no other opportunity to have those conversations in person or even get there extra early to have a side scene as I'm from out of town.

Private conversations need to happen. There isn't any doubt of that. It's just where they can take place. Now if the partition idea makes people cringe, even though I still think having maybe one small sectioned portion off would be advantageous, I think that arranging the seating in the room becomes a bit more critical. Think of fancy restaurants. There are a lot of people crammed in to a small space and private conversation happens a plenty. Low lighting, music, and available seating for smaller groups could help us get closer to that sort of atmosphere. There should be a no turning off the music rule as it seems like every one here is in agreement that it is a good thing.

In short - atmosphere will make people feel like lingering. Some times when I enter the main room the one big conversation seems to be a bit stiff or something I don't feel like getting in on, so I try to interact with others, but that big conversation in the middle of the couches sort of takes over the entire room's focus and people get bored. Breaking off seating and tables so little conversations can happen would be a Good Thing.

the way i see it, we already have a partition; the hallway right outside of the main room. i have only been to one game but i say people making use of that area. i can understand how maybe when all of the "ranked" characters leave for a long time, the others might get bored. i apologize if this gets mentioned later, i haven't read through all the posts yet. i say keep the outside IC, but if someone goes out there for a smoke or whatver, OOC, then they are OOC. just IMHO.

Love wrote:Oh, I forgot to answer about Lumsden. My answer is summed up by a big 'FUCK YES'.

if by "Lumsden" you mean, "Casa del Cenobyte", then effen eh, i am in.

Arc wrote:I would love it if everyone had the energy to make their own plot, especially if it somehow involved others. My reference was specifically due to my experiences in Primogen Council syndrome since those often only dealt with storyteller driven plot...everyone else was too busy hiding their personal plots.

Pure Inner Silence masks diablerie streaks doesn't it?

funny you mention this, i was going to. i LARPed for years with the vampire group in Regina. i stopped for about 6 years and to much of Jill's gentle prodding (not with a taser), i decided to try Kingdom Come because it was her game. Now to my point; frequently (and by frequently i mean always), the entire Primogen Council, the Clan reps, Seneschal, Sheriff blah blah blah would take off and do their big important scenes which for whatever reason weren't resolved after 8 coffees and 5 game sessions. i would be like, "kay, i keep trying to involve myself but all the important characters don't care and i can see the bored faces of the other players who want to have fun. i am going to fabricate my own plots from nothing and watch the primogen council squirm trying to figure out how the hell a plot started without them being involved". and after a couple years, i got tired of doing that. don't get me wrong, there are many people who are conscious of this fact and try to make conversation and whatnot which is outstanding. i agree with the whole point that everyone is making, it seems we're all on the same page. the game is what you (individual player) make it. if you are bored, find something to make it fun. give someone a hard time or whatever. again, just IMO.

[/quote]
Also too 2: Cock blocking is ALWAYS bad. It's not cock blocking if you're saving someone's dignity. That's called making an arse of yourself in front of some floozy who was trying to get into your friend's pants at a games convention.[/quote]

ummm.....that seems like a familiar story
"if you are gonna stay, then stay. if not, then fuck off because some of us are trying to sleep."

Shamus wrote:

cenobyte wrote:Also too 2: Cock blocking is ALWAYS bad. It's not cock blocking if you're saving someone's dignity. That's called making an arse of yourself in front of some floozy who was trying to get into your friend's pants at a games convention.

ummm.....that seems like a familiar story
"if you are gonna stay, then stay. if not, then fuck off because some of us are trying to sleep."

That was only the first half of the story.
The second half involved twenty dollars.

cenobyte wrote:

Shamus wrote:

cenobyte wrote:Also too 2: Cock blocking is ALWAYS bad. It's not cock blocking if you're saving someone's dignity. That's called making an arse of yourself in front of some floozy who was trying to get into your friend's pants at a games convention.

ummm.....that seems like a familiar story
"if you are gonna stay, then stay. if not, then fuck off because some of us are trying to sleep."

That was only the first half of the story.
The second half involved twenty dollars.

clearly not the same story i am thinking of then.

I'd like to summarize because through rereading this thread I've come to the realization that this is not just a seating issue that some people are having. From that I can guess some people have made complaints about the people that left to have meetings.


Last game we had around twenty three players. The council (which was made up of four players, plus the Prelate) was having private meetings concerning issues involving other players with the Codex. The Codex is one of the many systems put in place to help make story for people who choose to be political or run astray of the rules. The people involved in the story at the time had opted to play the political game and became involved in the plot through their efforts in game. Out of twenty three players, five were occupied for game stuff that perhaps they found tedious but important to the story. There were plenty of other players in the main room. In fact, there would have been as many players as any other month wandering about elsewhere because we gained a large number of new players last month.


Like I've said before in this extensive thread, private conversations need to happen. If people choose to be involved politically they can and should put effort into trying to stay with the rest of the game where I'm sure they'd enjoy being, but times will undeniably call for private conversation. From the games that I have seen the issue of the game being broken off was by no means worse this last game at all. The role of the convictions in the game is to provide antagonism and drama between groups of players. If the only time that those groups can communicate is between games in written form then I think the game takes a significant blow. Yes, it can be kept to a minimum, but all standing in a room listening to a conversation that doesn't pertain to things we find interesting because we're concerned that other players will be upset if we choose to have an intimate conversation is to the detriment of the game.


If you become bored in the game because others are missing get out there and make some plot. There are no characters more important then others; when you put more energy into creating stories and plot for those around you you can have fun and provide fun for others. Roleplaying allows us to write a collective story. Don't allow the story to be dictated to you, help shape it. Don't expect that reacting to others will be your chief entertainment in a game. You get back what you put in most of the time and as long as we can communicate out of character our issues politely to one another we can make sure every one is having a good time.


If any one has any issue with me at any game, I implore you to send me a PM so we can talk about it. I'm relieved when I can work something out with another player directly instead of being concerned that someone or a group of people have issues with me as a person.

ummmm....wow.....well said.

I was going to respond sooner, but to be honest I find some of the concerns behind this thread to be upsetting because they seem to be partially accusatory. The more I read the more indignant/insulted/irritated I get. So as you read this post, please keep in mind that these are *my opinions* and I’m not in a particularly conciliatory frame of mind. Maybe I’m seeing insult where there is none, but this is how I feel.

I’m going to try to take up issues as they came up in the thread. In some cases my replies echo those already given, so take that not as my not having read them but rather as endorsement of said responses. And yes, this will be a rant.

---

When half the player base missing from the room there is still half the player base to interact with! If you can’t get involved with one or two people out of half the player base then maybe your character should think about creating more interpersonal ties. If you want to talk to someone in particular, then make it happen, but those people might not always be available. It happens the same way at house parties in real life; sometimes you just don’t get a chance to talk with someone in the crowded house the way you’d like. If you need to have certain people in the room to have fun... (You know, I can’t think of a way to end that sentence without being as insulting as the insult I’m feeling.)

You don’t miss any more of the game when you are elsewhere than you would otherwise because you are involved in the most important part of the game – your part. It is true for characters as well as for people: most often the greatest joys and sorrows are your own. Sure, we are telling a group story and I’m not suggesting that you ignore others, but *your* purpose is to give the experiences and contributions of *your* character to the greater whole. Sometimes everyone will be with you but often only a few will know the scope of your character’s journey. To repeat: the most important part of the game is your part and it also happens to be the part you have the most control over, so run with it. I realise that we have some shy players out there and I’d like to remind them that they are shy, but that doesn’t mean that their character is shy. I used to be incredibly shy, and I still don’t like being outgoing, but when I’m in character I have to try to suppress that in order to play my character – I know how hard it is, but it is worth it. As for those who make shy characters: it is unfair of you to expect other characters to seek you out and force you to be involved. The same goes for those playing the crazies. I’ve played crazy and it can be fun but you have to be willing to take some initiative and be prepared to have others walk off shaking their heads.

When “most people” go off to talk in little groups and a few people are “left behind”, it gives those few a chance to get to know one another better. Saying that you have “not much to do” is like saying that the characters you are left with aren’t worth interacting with. I don’t think that is true. I don’t want to interact with all characters equally but I am fully willing to engage one and all. I would also like to observe that if those “left behind” were the ones to leave the room for a conversation then they probably wouldn’t feel so slighted; this shouldn’t be a matter of feeling left behind, ignored, and/or not being good enough to talk with. Every character is worth talking with... and about. Sometimes it’s just a matter of needing to have a certain conversation at a certain time.

I also don’t see how having all the convictions meet at once is a bad thing. After all, everyone (except maybe Keth, for now) is in a conviction; thus if the convictions all meet at once then everyone is involved in a group conversation/meeting and no one is left out. It also imparts a modicum of privacy to the meetings because everyone should be engaged. Not that there seem to be a lot of deliberate conviction meetings. Staggering the meetings might leave more room for spying but also more room for people complaining about exclusion.

How is it “distracting” for half the players to be out of the main room? You have to make the choice of whom to follow or eavesdrop on? A door opening or closing distracts you from forming a full sentence? A person walking past while you speak makes you lose your train of thought? You can’t articulate your thoughts without a minimum number of bodies in the room?

As for the idea of encouraging people to not have longish conversations at the game, it comes down to what the game is considered to be. As far as I view it, it is a Census where the numbers of Fallen are counted and all members are accounted for (or not) and those present renew their dedication to the Civitas and the Kings. The only part of the game that all characters are required to be at is Court. So if I’m off having a really interesting conversation in the corner with one or two other Fallen then it is no more a “side scene” than the group of ten people in the main room who are having their conversation. The point of the game is to connect with portions of the population at large, not be held captive to them.

I’d like to point out that in many cases scenes that start off as small groups can grow as others wander over and join in. Sure, there are going to be some “piss off”s but sometimes two people just want to have a different conversation from the majority. Whom my character chooses to talk to or not talk to is my business and the idea of forcing or corralling people into one room or into a mass conversation is something I find *very* offensive.

I think that it is at this point that I would like to make two observations about the main room. First, all too often it seems that characters are not interested in starting conversations. People are sitting around waiting for someone else to go to the bother of talking to *them* rather than *initiate* a conversation. We are playing Fallen, sure, but they also are people with hobbies and opinions and any of the topics you would discuss are available in character, with perhaps the exception of movies, television, and computer/electronic stuff. Bring in a Regina paper to discuss or talk religion, politics, sports, gardening, bubble blowing, macaroni jewellery, or any other thing that comes to mind. Second, in those frequent silences, rather than start a new conversation, people will heckle the conversation happening in another area of the room without seeking to actually join in or understand what is really being discussed. Nothing makes me want to have a conversation in the main room like smart mouths trying to interject idiocy into a conversation that they don’t have the context for. Yes, that was sarcasm. If you want to do so then at least have the decency to come over and get invested in the conversation and caught up to speed so that what you say is a meaningful contribution.

It was for this heckling reason alone that the council met privately at the last game. There was something that needed to be resolved and while it took a long time, it would have taken longer with everyone trying to chime in. If you talk to the Council I think that you’ll find we thought we had enough problems with our Deistical observer/mediator, let alone the rest of the city. If you want to be involved in politics then play a Divine or Infernal and get political. If you think about it you might realize that the Black Court is made up of the people who were at the time the only Infernal in the city. There might be one or two who would rather not be political. I’d also like to point out that the Codex is *not* a democracy and that the King’s do rule with an iron fist – unless challenged. Everyone does not get equal say so why expect that everyone should be in on everything political. As for the time it takes, well it takes until it is done. If you want to get political then talk to other characters while in character, or, if you are still at a loss, talk to people out of character for suggestions as to how to do it. I’d be happy to discuss ousting my character from the position of Black Queen while at coffee, but, as you might well guess, I wouldn’t be likely to do so in character.

As for the Court hoarding plot, I’ve two things to say to that. First, so long as I’ve been involved with the Court most Court plot is with regards to the Host and Horde and gets disseminated, so no one is truly missing out on that. Sure, we just had a “punishment plot”, if you want to call it that, but the details were widespread. Second, if you want to know what is going on in a Court plot and get involved with it then ask your faction’s representatives in the Court, or ask anyone you know in the Court. Not all Court members are as tight lipped as others – especially if you’ve a personal relationship with them, be it friend, business partner, lover, or enemy whom you goad into revealing what they know that you don’t know.Sometimes you have to be active in seeking out plot rather than wait for it to be handed to you.

People need to feel that they are important to the story and I truly believe that all of them are. I personally am far more interested in the *personal* plots that get created by the characters than in anything the storyteller throws at us – no offense, Jill. The only reason I bother to come to the game is because of the interpersonal interactions. I’m not just talking about the ones I’m involved with but also the ones I see around me. In my opinion, Kingdom Come can work best when it gets to be like a Soap Opera: full of hook-ups, break-ups, rivalries, alliances, and all the rest, petty or profound. Sometimes this is slow to develop, especially when characters disappear from the game. I’m starting to feel the soap opera with Gabe – and it has nothing to do with the flesh-eater, although that will have to be explored when I can talk to him for more than two minutes. Maybe it’s because as an Avarice Gabe is more vocal and in-your-face than he was as a Charity and it is that willingness to be outgoing, confrontational, and involved that leads to interesting things.

As others have said, the game is what you make of it and you get out what you are willing to put in. I can’t help but think that if you are bored it is your own fault and not that of those around you or the storyteller. If you want something for your character then I encourage you to seek it out. If you need help then talk to *someone you trust* to help you work it through out of character.

---

Okay, this ranting already made me feel better. I’m not going to edit – I want it to be honest – so if I’m repetitive or grammatically deficient I hope you will forgive me. I’d also like to remind you that this is all my emotional opinion and it in no way invalidates the opinions of others. I can see where the other sides are coming from and respect them for their thought-out positions and beliefs – I just don’t agree.

Proceed to agree with me or contradict me as you see fit. I’m not made of glass. If you don’t want to reply publicly then feel free to use email or private messages.

Well said, and I realise these are your opinions.

And I would agree with you 100% if the people who brought this up (not accusing anyone of anything, for the record) didn't say anything about "being bored" or "not having anything to do". It was presented as "feeling left out".

While I do think that every player in this game DOES create his/her own plot (and I'm glad you prefer your own plot to mine, Alan! It takes the pressure off...both of these points do - I don't have to "perform" at all!), it is sometimes a lot more difficult for a new player or for a new character to not feel "left out, marginalised", etc.. Most of the players in Providence have been *very* good at being inclusive (even if the way you all "include" new folks is by making them the centre of attention of your ire).

I knew this would be a touchy topic, which is why I'm asking for suggestions on how to make it easier to have private/semi-private conversations in closer proximity, rather than just throwing it out there, being accusatory, and saying I'm'n'a dock Zeal if you leave the room (which is a ridiculous statement *anyway* and I would never do that) or give out more Zeal if you stay in the main room (just as douchey).

Also too, thank you for those points. They are important and well expressed!

If it is a matter of "feeling left out" then I'd like to add another point to my rant.

What makes this game interesting is the relationships that you create for your character. Sometimes you fall into them and sometimes you don't. There are built in coteries for your character. Insert yourself into the machinations of your Conviction. If you are Divine, latch on to another Divine to act as your mentor, especially if you are newly reckoned, and follow him/her around to learn all that you can. Gabe would have heartily endorsed having a silent observer at even the Council meeting if they were being mentored by a participant for purposes either conviction or to learn about the duties of a position so as to possibly hold it one day. The other thing about Convictions is that they are a good source of things to do if you have no plans for downtime; talk to your King, Queen, or Bishop about what you can investigate, research, or otherwise help with. If you take the initiative in this manner then *you* will have information to pass on to others and become the expert in that area of the plot. *You* will be called on to give clarification and counsel. You also need to tell your coterie what you can do best and then proceed to do it. It is good to find a Murder or Choir to belong to if you can (harder with few Divine and Infernal) and develop some common goals to work toward together accomplishing them. Personal plot doesn't have to mean that only you are involved, it just means that you are initiating it and running with it. If you are having a hard time finding a group in character, perhaps put a word into an ear out of character to figure a way to write in an overlapping interest or goal that brings you together during downtime. Maybe you and another character both frequent the museums in the city and can be drawn together by art appreciation. It may not get you into all their plots but it might create a reason for you to approach them in character and start to hang out with them more -- or even better, for them to approach you. There is a big difference between stranger, acquaintance, and friend when it comes to wanting to talk to someone.

I would like to add a little something I like to call "You know how much I love to watch you work Tyrone, but I have my country's hundredth anniversary to plan, my wife to murder, Gilder to frame for it, and frankly I'm swamped."

When I was younger and just getting into larp I had a lot of free time to do so. I would have a scene with anyone to do practically anything. When I wasn't in character I was thinking about what I could do next in character and where to find somone to get into character with.

Now I am much much older. I have less and less free time. I've said and done about everything a person can say or do in character. Some experiences even left me with warnings from STs; good times. My gaming time is at a premium and it is only getting rarer. In order to maximize it I do go through a bit of a mental process when seeing a character at a game. I think "do I have anything I need to say to them?" and then "I have a certain plot I want to explore, are they suitable, will they add something I haven't thought of?" and then "do I have time to see this through in such a way as makes sense in character while allowing for some not necessarily consistant roleplaying to make sure things keep moving and interesting?"

I've mentioned in other threads this same sort of thing, more specifically why I prefer players tough out rough spots in their character's development. Rough spots being those that have seeming insurmountable problems or absolutely nothing left to do. But also, every character has a shelf life in a given setting so I can't begrudge someone their right to choose what they play.

In terms of roleplaying consistency and development time I think big changes should take about three months. Granted, that is only three games but let's face it, there is only 12 hours of direct roleplaying time scheduled in that three months so you have to be prepared to let things move along at some point. Subtle changes or Totally Epic Stuff! should take about six months to develop before they burst. These, however, are just guidelines. Afterall, some things just happen with no apparent cause for change.

At the end of the day we all have a lot invested in each other in a larp. We have to be willing to take some wins and some losses and some surprises in order to tell one big technicolor story. I know I make some decisions for my personal enjoyment and sense of scarcity of time that might make some feel left out. Each of us has a lot to do to prove ourselves worthy of getting in on someone else's part of the story, I try to do what I can handle without diluting my effect on what I have going. I know all of you try to do the same to some degree or another and I can't help but feel that it is our own responsibilities to make our own fun. If you want to game with me (why you'd want that I'm not exactly clear on, just giving an "example") and I seem to not even realize you are there the issue likely isn't you per se. Shoot a me a pm and discuss with me as a player getting in on stuff and I am glad to work on something with you that can see some development in game.

Talking about the "soap opera" aspects spurred a little thought in me. I do agree the soap opera really is the heart of playing Kingdom Come - ideally, most salon-style LARPs are like this, but Kingdom Come is especially designed for it. I think if folks are feeling left out, it might be because they are misreading the focus of the game. I don't really see the war against the Host and the Horde as the focus of the game. It is a framing device. Sure, there'll be epic battles against them on occasion, but in reality their main purpose is as a deux ex machina to put pressure and stress on Fallen society, and to explain why people who hate each other must work together.

And I do think Kingdom Come is only interesting if emotions run high between the Fallen. If everyone is a big happy team working together for the good of the Fallen, the game falls pretty flat. I think it works best if it is a complicated mess of personal motivations, and that people's individual loves and hatreds are far more important to them than the War - it is only the immediate threat from extinction that keeps the peace in place. Think of who the Infernal are - monsters, scourges upon humanity...would you as Divine really be all friendly and chatty with people who cause so much suffering? Think of who the Divine are - righteous murders, scourge upon the Fallen, slaying the Infernal for years all because they thought the wellbeing of some talking monkeys was worth more than the lives of the Fallen...would you as Infernal really want to even work with someone who you know would be happy to throw you up on the cross the second the Last Crusade is over? And Diestical - clearly both the Divine and Infernal are insane...is even being in the same room with them both a smart idea? You have to work together or die, but doing so should be a struggle. Just keeping everyone's hands from each others' throats should keep emotions running high and plots active.

(I admit this is part of the reason I am disappointed Trent altered the IC timeline. Back when the Last Crusade was a recent occurance, it made for a lot more drama - all but the most newly Reckoned Fallen could look across the line at their counterparts in the other Convictions and remember a day when they were actively trying to kill each other, and probably had dear friends in the past who died in the struggle.)

Maintaing that type of high drama and intense passion requires energy, of course. It also requires a certain level of enabling - if the Storyguide punishes the players too heavily for not working together like a finely honed machine, they'll put aside their differences and become a big happy military unit in order to keep up with the NPCs. If the Kings punish every bit of discord and restrict Fallen from going after each other beyond the admittedly pretty loose laws of the Codex, people will learn to toe the line and not try anything anymore. Those things will kill the conflict all by themselves. But I haven't seen either of those happening.

I think the key to generating plot for folks not in positions is, when you go in character.... DON'T ask yourself "How can I help out in the War?" DON'T ask yourself "Where can my abilities be best used by my Kings?" DON'T ask yourself "How can I forge the Fallen into a cohesive and effective force?" Instead... DO ask yourself "Who do I hate? How can I get at them?" DO ask yourself "Who do I love? How can I make them happy, even if it might damn me?" DO ask yourself "Whose very existence offends me?" DO ask yourself "How can I avoid being unremarkable, forgetable and easy to get along with?"

Anyway, yeah, if folks are just worried about politics and the fight against the Host and the Horde, they'll be left out from some stuff if they're not Court or don't have the ears of the King(though, again, the Council in KC almost never actually needs to meet - most of the time it is just the two Kings - so it isn't even that limiting). But the point is that such plot is the boring unimportant plot. Court members will be trying to get you to play ball and all be a nice big happy family who works together like a team of crack commandos. Don't make it easy on them - indeed, make it hellishly hard for them. Don't play ball and be a good little soldier. The real plot is your own hatreds, rivalries, desires, and loves. Those you shouldn't need the Court around to act on - unless the people you're targetting are Court members. In which case, go bust up the meeting ICly to tell them that you're going to feed their entrails to your hounds.

All above are my opinion only - I've only played this game four times, so you guys could have agreed on an entirely different play culture. But that's how I think KC should be played.

I hope that anyone was taking what I have said in this thread as accusatory. No accusations of anything were meant. My main point was that I would like to see more IC areas than just the main classroom. I have no problem with groups wandering out of the room as long as the other players can walk right outside into the hall and say hey I want to talk to you. I still stand by the fact that I do not like it when groups walk away and find another room and then close the door and that is when I think it should be in the STs prerogative to nudge them back in to the main area if they see that the game is suffering overall because the group is outside. But like everyone has also said everyone needs to needs to be proactive as that is even better than the ST nudging the game in any manner. In SbN I have said that I will do this and no one has seemed to mind but I should also say that in the 5 months the game has been running I have not had to do it a single time.

I totally agree with everything that has been said about making plot for your character and that the court stuff and battle with the host and horde really should be secondary. The entire time I was out doing court stuff my mind was back in the main room either watching and protecting Edward or gutting Bal but hey that is just me and I was actually somewhat glad for the distraction as I'd rather give it a month or two before my sword ends up in Bal's gut.

I really have been the one and only person left in a room while everyone was meeting at a game and I seriously considered quitting that game at that point. I mean if I want to hang out by myself I'll watch a movie.

I just realized that I brought up Primogen Council Syndrome and perhaps that is where some of the accusations were felt or maybe it wasn't; for me this is not so much the Council hording plot but instead finding a locked room and not letting others in. From what I have seen so far there has been very little of plot hording and I think I've already mentioned my dislike of locked away meetings.

...but I still get a taser and a whip, right?

Part of the trouble some might be having is that they haven't been able to read the setting; even more reason to 'band together' as Alan suggests, I suppose.

While you make good points, Alan, some people need a bit more, or different kinds of nudging. I think it's a good thing to encourage people to find their own convictions and to make their own fun. If you're *truly* lost, you can always talk to your Storyguide, too.

John, I'm not sure Trent has changed anything by way of setting. I know my understanding of some of the dates don't jive with others', but ultimately, I don't think things have changed that much. Angels and Devils have been killing Fallen for quite a few years; the Codex was developed and implemented about 65 years ago to get Fallen to stop killing and antagonising themselves so they *could* unite to fight a common enemy. I *could* have completely missed the point on this one, but i'm just not sure it's changed a whole lot. Different topic, though, which should probably be discussed one-on-one.

Some of *my* favourite moments in LARP have been watching other people talk in what they thought was privacy. And, some of my least favourite moments have been during the "Primogen meetings" when a handful of people were left in the outer room and the doors were locked between them, so I understand where these concerns have come from.

cenobyte wrote:...but I still get a taser and a whip, right?

only on Cory and Tyler. Damn I hate them!

What about Vince!? He LOVES Tasers!

cenobyte wrote:
John, I'm not sure Trent has changed anything by
way of setting. I know my understanding of some of the dates don't jive
with others', but ultimately, I don't think things have changed that
much. Angels and Devils have been killing Fallen for quite a few years;
the Codex was developed and implemented about 65 years ago to get
Fallen to stop killing and antagonising themselves so they *could*
unite to fight a common enemy. I *could* have completely missed the
point on this one, but i'm just not sure it's changed a whole lot.
Different topic, though, which should probably be discussed
one-on-one.

I think its always been this way no matter what year the the codex was
developed. The only problem is that we (the characters) let our
emotions get the better of us. Tabbris should love having Bal around
because Bal will eat the Angel's faces. How long Tabbris keeps his emotions in check will depend on a lot of things he wants the codex to work and know that by even challenging Bal he is going to create conflict between the Infernal and the Divine and this is a bad thing. Which wins out logic or emotions. In the end I'm guessing emotions will but hopefully Bal just eats some poisoned Angel first and dies then all will be good. If Trent actually means to go the other way in that logic and sense rules us all then I think the game becomes that much more boring. It would be good for tabletop where the point of the game is to be out running around killing Angels, Demons and Devils but in a LARP it is the negative and positive conflicts between characters that makes things interesting.

And no to the tasering Vince thing because Vince loves tasers I will have to say no. Tasers are only allowed on those not wanting to be tasered.

Tabbris wrote:
I think its always been this way no matter what year the the codex was
developed. The only problem is that we (the characters) let our
emotions get the better of us. Tabbris should love having Bal around
because Bal will eat the Angel's faces. How long Tabbris keeps his emotions in check will depend on a lot of things he wants the codex to work and know that by even challenging Bal he is going to create conflict between the Infernal and the Divine and this is a bad thing. Which wins out logic or emotions. In the end I'm guessing emotions will but hopefully Bal just eats some poisoned Angel first and dies then all will be good. If Trent actually means to go the other way in that logic and sense rules us all then I think the game becomes that much more boring. It would be good for tabletop where the point of the game is to be out running around killing Angels, Demons and Devils but in a LARP it is the negative and positive conflicts between characters that makes things interesting.

I think ideally, even in a setting with a longer-existing Codex, it still shouldn't stop personal emotions from dominating "what makes sense". Look at how many major mistakes get made in real life wars because generals even in the same army can't stand each other and make bad decisions to show each other up. And the Infernal and the Divine working together are like putting Stalin and Churchill together to fight Hitler - they'll go after the bigger threat for now, but they're still not friends, won't pretend to be friends, and both know that as soon as the common enemy is defeated, a new war starts between the two former allies.

Ideally, I think the vibe is sort of like a zombie movie. Everyone knows if you just put aside your differences and work together as a big happy family, you can fortify yourselves and surive the zombie hordes. But you don't. You continue the petty conflicts with your fellow humans, until finally the zombies take advantage of your weaknesses and everyone dies. Replace zombies with Angels and Devils.

Think of it this way... How many of you, in real life...if Canada went to war and for some obscure reason started drafting people... And put you in a foxhole with a pedophile, a serial killer, and a rapist. How easy do you think it'd be for you to put aside your feelings and just work with them like any fellow soldier? Very hard, I think. Now imagine you are Divine, your emotions are far more extreme than a human's, and you've sworn yourself to vengance against the unclean and unholy...how much harder is it then, even with other guys shooting at you?

This post isn't really arguing with anyone so much as sharing metaphors I like.

Jill:
I need more info on the scenerio. Am I of a physical disposition within the said fellow's preferential sexual deviancy? What is my age?
I think if I was in an actual foxhole with those people I think I'd be really glad they are directed toward the enemy...and not my cornhole...

Johnathan: You certainly may be. We should talk further. Your age is dependent on how hold you are.

I agree about your cornhole.

I think I have NEVER said, or typed, that before. In fact, I'm certain of it.